Election incoming
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Yet for all the headlines about “mounting antisemitism” in Labour, we are rarely given any sense of its scale. Data released by the party in February 2019 showed that it had received 1,106 specific complaints of antisemitism since April 2018, of which just 673 regarded actual Labour members. The party membership stands at over half a million: the allegations, even if they were true, concern around 0.1 percent of the total.
This is the sort of thing that can make it seem like a smear rather than anything substantial.
john eden
male pale and stale
Well clearly hundreds of instances of anti-semitism committed by people who aren't even members of the Labour Party have been reported.
So it's hard to say.
I don't know what the general level of anti-semitism in the population is, so I don't know how it all compares. Any org with half a million members will have its fair share of cranks and bigots.
The main thing is - when this stuff crops up does the party deal with it robustly? I've not seen many people arguing that it does.
True, but the counter to that is what else do you have to go on? There's no satisfactory explanation or rebuttal if you base your view on something you can't produce evidence of, much like that anecdote of Nick Clegg's with the bloke saying he hadn't seen any asylum seekers in his area but he knew they were everywhere.
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
Say rather there's a definite problem, which is being exaggerated and exploited unscrupulously.
Which is pretty much the point of the EHRC investigation. Hopefully, they'll shed proper light on the matter and make enforceable recommendations as (and if) necessary.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
What, me, personally? Not a lot - but then, while I am a member of the Labour party, I'm not closely involved on a daily basis, and I sure as hell don't spend my spare time trawling through pro-Corbyn Facebook groups. Moreover, I'm not Jewish. But I've read enough remarks and articles from people who are that closely involved, and who are Jewish, to the effect that if they reported every nasty comment or dodgy graphic they saw, they'd never do anything else. So, with respect, your comment sounds a bit like someone saying "How do you know sexual harassment is common?", just because women don't usually go to the police over being catcalled by builders or getting their bums grabbed in a nightclub. I'm not personally and directly affected by this, but that isn't a good reason to adopt a default attitude of cynicism towards those who are affected.
More broadly though, this just illustrates an important aspect of the whole problem, which is that antisemitism is the only kind of racism whereby people on the left, including many who consider themselves paragons of anti-racism, but who are not members of the affected ethnic group, feel qualified to deny there's a problem, or insist it's "blown out of all proportion", or is the result of "smears" by political enemies, or even that it's a media con job being perpetrated by the very people who are being affected. It is never, ever enough just for Jews to say "Look, there's a problem here" - there are always demands for proof, which are never enough, and then we get this weird "bad apples" calculus showing that, since most Labour members haven't had a formal complaint lodged against them, everything is therefore fine. Whereas I'm sure you'd agree that there is tons of Islamophobia in the Tory party - right? - but you're obviously never going to seen an article in Jacobin saying "Well hackshally only 0.1% of Tory party members have had complaints made against them, so it's all a fuss over nothing, orchestrated by their enemies."
To put it another way, if 85% of black people in Britain said that a certain politician had an established track record of saying and doing things that made them think he had a fundamental anti-black prejudice, would you feel comfortable in dismissing it or saying that it was massively exaggerated? No matter how much you personally liked that politician?
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Just not true. So much racism is routinely denied/minimised, including on the left (by which for these purposes I presume we mean people who identify with the Labour Party).
As per the other thread, discrimination works in different and complex ways according to the group being discriminated against - the denial and minimisation don't necessarily work in exactly the same way.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Oh come on, when was the last time an "Islamophobia scandal" rocked the Labour party?
And if it has, then it would almost certainly have involved the centrist part of the party - so no, that's not what I mean by "the left".
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Last time we had an argument on here, you yourself (who I believe define yourself as broadly on the left) were minimising the culture of racism outside big UK cities, by repeatedly alleging that incidents of violent racism were really just to do with 'bad apples'/random idiots/whatever term you used, rather than being a product of a culture in which racism is acceptable.
And I'm certainly not suggesting that you are alone or uniquely terrible in this - it's a very widespread mode of thought, 'even' among people who would define themselves as anti-racist. I think white Gentiles generally need it explained to them by someone who has experienced racism (I certainly include myself in those who have needed the explanation).
Racism is minimised all the time on the left - it's just you choose when you see it and when you don't see it.
And I'm certainly not suggesting that you are alone or uniquely terrible in this - it's a very widespread mode of thought, 'even' among people who would define themselves as anti-racist. I think white Gentiles generally need it explained to them by someone who has experienced racism (I certainly include myself in those who have needed the explanation).
Racism is minimised all the time on the left - it's just you choose when you see it and when you don't see it.
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john eden
male pale and stale
For completeness: https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/13948/dossier-islamophobia-labour-party
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...ked-after-by-someone-wearing-a-burka-1.468119 <- Thornberry is not exactly a centrist.
More broadly I'd say that some of the "new atheist" lot would self-define as left liberal and have probably come out with a lot of crap about Islam.
john eden
male pale and stale
Then there is the whole argument about whether it is sensible to engage with people's "reasonable concerns" about immigration.
Or Gordon Brown's "british jobs for british workers" which was literally a slogan on the cover of a National Front magazine in the 1970s.
Or Gordon Brown's "british jobs for british workers" which was literally a slogan on the cover of a National Front magazine in the 1970s.
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
I think you'd find plenty of Islamophobia if you looked for it, given that the Labour Party is a sizeable group within a society with a big Islamophobia problem.
Also, antiSemitism has existed for many years in the Labour party and its environs. This has only become a 'scandal' now because the papers have run with it.
Which leads to the point - when was the last time you saw a generally-accepted "Islamophobia scandal" **anywhere** in the UK?!
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That's a fair point, but what can the party do if it isn't being reported? Obviously if their handling of the cases which are reported falls short then that's something which needs to be rectified but how do they clamp down on say random people in Facebook groups that aren't being flagged up?
Also a fair point.
I might be skeptical of the report and polling depending on the source and I'd want to look into the track record myself before coming to a conclusion, but nah, I don't think I would and I don't feel comfortable considering that it's exaggerated in this case either, but it can feel that way at times from some of the coverage, particularly when you look at the handling of the accusations of Tory Islamophobia. It can look like the media are picking and choosing which accusations of racism to be angry about based on who's being accused.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Bit of a stretch there, John. I'm not sure I'd want my toddler looked after by someone with an almost completely concealed ace, and it would certainly have scared the shit out of my severely senile grandmother. Burqas are weird and horrible. I support Muslim women's right to wear them, because banning them would be an even worse injustice, but if you're going to equate a failure to think them a fine and groovy thing with "Islamophobia" then I'm sorry, but no.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Interesting that Thornberry should come up, as she has form for supporting Assad. To me, the concept of left-wing Islamophobia has more validity in terms of misguided Western support for reactionary regimes in the Muslim world, whose victims are usually mostly Muslims themselves. But this comes, at least in theory, from a desire to champion 'Muslims' - often seen as a homogeneous block - against 'The West', which of course includes Israel, and which crosses over with antisemitism where eg. Hamas is concerned.
But as far as common or garden "Lol, towelhead terrorists" type Islamophobia goes, it's overwhelmingly going to come from Tories/Kippers, isn't it? I'd have thought that too obvious to warrant serious discussion.
But as far as common or garden "Lol, towelhead terrorists" type Islamophobia goes, it's overwhelmingly going to come from Tories/Kippers, isn't it? I'd have thought that too obvious to warrant serious discussion.
john eden
male pale and stale
Well we talking about “an islamophobia scare” which isn’t the same thing as islamophobia.