the socialism of fools

[padraig (u.s.)]

Corbyn thinks, not unreasonably, that a subjugated population has a right to use violence. Northern Irish Catholics. Palestinians. Black South Africans under apartheid.

if you put it like that, who can object

but that way of putting it totally elides the long and troubled history of making direct comparisons between those different populations and situations

it's one thing to support the right of a subjugated population to resist, even recognizing that may include some level of violence which you may not also support

it's another thing to embrace an organization like Hamas, which actively denies the Holocaust, would immediately wipe Israel if it was in its power to do so, etc

I'm not talking about acknowledging the reality that Hamas controls Gaza and has to be included in negotiations; I'm talking about embracing it

 

[luka]

Don't understand your point sorry.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

he also has a well-documented history of being too close to Holocaust deniers and similar circles for comfort

and it seems very much like without criticism brought on by his increased prominence he never would've thought any of that was wrong

and even now his defense really amounts to the ultimate "but I've got black friends"

I don't think the guy's all bad, by any means - it's not like this erases all the good. like probably most people here I agree or I assume I'd agree with many of his policies.

and I'm fully aware that this is all mixed up with a right-wing smear campaign to the point where it's hard to distinguish what's what at sometimes

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

what don't you understand, specifically?

 

[luka]

Dont know what you're trying to say.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

you're lumping together - or rather you're saying Corbyn is - a bunch of disparate things into "the right of a subjugated population to use violence"

I'm not sure what my answer would be on Palestinian violence as a general question but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand

I would dismiss Hamas out of hand, as Corbyn does not

there are nuances to these things; not all N.I. Protestant violence is the same as the Ulster Volunteer Force, for example

 

[luka]

There's nuances to everything.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

resistance to subjugation and imperialism are (basically everyone would agree) of themselves unalloyed goods

but someone can resist subjugation and be so reprehensible in other ways that it outweighs that good

Corbyn doesn't make that distinction, including when it comes to basically anything having to do with Jews, so that's not a good defense

I can't make it any clearer

 

[luka]

There's nuances and there's general principles. I don't follow politics, it doesn't interest me. Im sure if I investigated I'd find all sorts of things I didn't agree with Corbyn about, nuanced things.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

there are. the evidence is overwhelmingly against Corbyn making them in a meaningful way.

 

[luka]

Ok. Another politician who is less than perfect. Not a surprise.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the point is, no one here - I would think - disagrees with that general principle

the devil is in the execution of that in real life - i.e., the politics - which you've said don't interest you (fair enough)

I also - generally - believe that a subjugated population has the right to use violence, depending on the level of subjugation and various other factors

stating the man's principle doesn't help his case in any way

 

[luka]

If you say so.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

come off it luke

no one's saying "fuck Jeremy Corbyn, he's not perfect" - maybe the UK tabloid press is, idk, no one here is

I'm saying "fuck this guy, he is imperfect in a particularly reprehensible way that he refuses to deal with in a constructive manner and makes him unfit to be Prime Minister"

it's not holding him to an unreasonable standard, or an argument for the superiority of anyone else

from what I understand, he's a giant electoral liability anyway, and his Brexit position is sketchy, but those are by the way

 

[luka]

Yeah you said that at the start of the thread. Barty said the same thing. It's a point of view. It's perfectly reasonable. I don't have a problem with it.

 

[luka]

Other people feel his strengths outweigh the negatives. Again, a perfectly respectable and understandable position.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the guy has a long, well-documented history of suspect behavior

do I think he hates or even dislikes Jews? absolutely not

do I think other things he cares more about have blinded him here, possibly beyond the point of return? yes

 

[luka]

You may well be right. Craner gave up his Labour Party membership over a year ago for that reason. My sister thinks there's a genuine problem. Barty is very upset about it.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

clearly it's a big enough issue to enough people that it could realistically stop him and Labour from winning one of the most important elections Britain's ever had

 

[luka]

Other people think a strong stance towards Israel is a moral imperative and collusion with their crimes is unacceptable. Droid is in that boat.