the socialism of fools

[Mr. Tea]

Corbyn thinks, not unreasonably, that a subjugated population has a right to use violence. Northern Irish Catholics. Palestinians. Black South Africans under apartheid.

This is true - and as you say, hard to disagree, if you think people shouldn't be pushed around and treated like shit.

But it points to a kind of have-your-cake-and-eat-it attitude I've noticed among a lot of Corbynites. On the one hand, the fact that Corbyn has always supported the world's underdogs is a huge part of his appeal, and a vital aspect of that is his support for oppressed people's right to use violence against their oppressors. The power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland didn't come about because Gerry Adams is really good at organising petitions, after all. So if Corbyn supports the IRA (which he does), and if the IRA are terrorists (which they are), then the unavoidable conclusion of the syllogism is that Corbyn supports terrorism.

On the other hand, Corbynites also want it to be a lie, a slander, a grotesque calumny, when anyone actually says "Corbyn supports terrorists."

 

[john eden]

This weaponisation of your weak spot is an integral part of politics and so is the defence of your man’s character. I’m genuinely amazed that any adult is surprised by it.

Clearly there are degrees of support which start at demanding humane treatment of republican prisoners and ending at cheering on bombings of civilians. I remember Corbyn doing the former but not the latter. So that is the political space that his supporters are trying to claim.

 

[john eden]

The Tory version of this (and racism, anti-semitism) is just to say everything is political correctness gone mad, words are taken out of context, it was just a joke, it was a different time then.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Other people think a strong stance towards Israel is a moral imperative and collusion with their crimes is unacceptable. Droid is in that boat.

I'm sure this is a waste of breath but I do hope you realise there are shitty countries in the world other than Israel?

 

[luka]

My rule is never to talk about politics with you Tea. Everyone has that rule but some people struggle to stick to it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

My rule is never to talk about politics with you Tea. Everyone has that rule but some people struggle to stick to it.

Your rule is supposedly never to talk about politics at all. And yet here we are.

 

[luka]

Yes I know, no need to rub it in.

 

[Mr. Tea]

This weaponisation of your weak spot is an integral part of politics and so is the defence of your man’s character. I’m genuinely amazed that any adult is surprised by it.

I'm talking about the self-same political convictions being held up as evidence of someone's righteousness and at the same time flatly denied.

Clearly there are degrees of support which start at demanding humane treatment of republican prisoners and ending at cheering on bombings of civilians. I remember Corbyn doing the former but not the latter. So that is the political space that his supporters are trying to claim.

Obviously Corbyn has never gone on TV and rubbed his hands together over dead civilians. I'm sure he's never done it in private, either - he's not a monster, I just think he's deluded about some issues. But he has been given ample opportunity to condemn the IRA's bombing campaign - by interviewers who were deliberately needling him, true, but that is after all their job - and every time he has demurred and made bland, meaningless noises about condemning "all forms of violence", when the issue at stake is not "all forms of violence", but one very specific form of violence. It's the same when he meaninglessly condemns "violence on all sides" in the Syrian civil war, when one clearly identifiable side unequivocally started the violence and has committed the majority of it all along. It's much like when white racists in America say "All lives matter" - it's a facade of neutrality trying to mask a partisan position.

 

[john eden]

And?

Nobody is asking the Tories to denounce the terrorism of the Ulster Loyalist movement they are in bed with are they?

So “neutrality” is the best you’re going to get from Irish republicans.

This should all be obvious. Getting vexated about this is like getting agitated about a cow not being a horse.

 

[Mr. Tea]

And?

Nobody is asking the Tories to denounce the terrorism of the Ulster Loyalist movement they are in bed with are they?

Well that is unfortunately the world we live in. I'm well aware of the political leanings of most of this country's media, including the 'impartial' BBC. I don't think pointing out how unfair it is, as true as that may be, gets us anywhere. Corbyn could have swallowed his principles for a moment and said "Yes of course I condemn it", but that's just not something he does. It might have made him look slightly better to some wavering voters, but would have looked bad in the eyes of his real base, I suppose.

Leaving all ethics and politics aside for a moment, I think Dan (?) hit the nail on the head earlier when he said we're in a bizarre situation where someone who's spent his life contesting the power of the British state is now seeking to become the highest executive of the British state.

 

[version]

McDonnell apologised on Question Time a while back and I haven't heard much about him re: the IRA since, but then again he isn't leader.

 

[DannyL]

McDonnell is smart and sharper than Corbyn. Doesn't give off that sense of mule-like stubborness when faced with the media's bullshit. I think if he'd been in charge, he'd have shut the AS stuff down a lot quicker, perhaps in aa less damaging way,. There've been quite a few background rumours that he's been taking charge of the operation as Corbyn and team are a bit shit.

 

[john eden]

I think Corbyn's problem is precisely that he is too nice and doesn't want to jettison his former allies/positions. But this is also a plus point in that he can't be dismissed as some kind of careerist who will say whatever it takes to get power.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

muslim anti-semitism is different here from white anti-semitism, itself a distinctive british racism, and also different from middle-eastern anti-semitism

yes it's important to distinguish these things, in the same way it's important not to view Jews - or any population that's the target of discrimination - as a monolith themselves

I'm definitely under the impression that the worst parts of modern anti-Semitism in all its incarnations come from the European tradition

Jews were always dhimmis in the Islamic world but usually (as is almost always brought up in some point in discussions like this) considerably better off than they were in Christendom

the idea of global conspiracy etc - like its predecessor, the blood libel - is wholly of European origin

the problem being that at this point it has completely infiltrated and now shapes anti-Semitic thought everywhere

if you look at the way Hamas, or Ahmedinejad (tbf, unlike Rouhani), or any open, serious anti-Semite talks about Jews, they all sound pretty similar

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the difference now is, as European anti-Semitism became marginalized, or softened into coded language etc, the opposite happened in large swathes of the Muslim world

primarily like as a result, respectively, of the Holocaust and ensuing collective collect, and (obviously) Israel

one of Israel's Catch-22's - Jews clearly needed a place where they were in charge, but the way it came to be made the position of Jews under Islamic rule everywhere else basically untenable

and now there's the weight of 70+ years - and counting - of toxic history

added to/mixed up with the general humiliation of the Arab world by the West - of which Israel is if not a full member, then an addendum

so for Muslims in a country like the UK, I'd imagine the typical draw of anti-Semitism (blaming Jews for everything) is easily mixed up with bitterness at their own individual or collective racist treatment

it's a tough spot to be in, no doubt

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

luka's Pakistani schoolmate was wrong about the level of organization, but there is a kernel of truth in it

Haj Amin al-Husseini - the most important Palestinian leader up to 1948 - spent time in Germany during WWII, worked with the Nazis and was undoubtedly influenced by their ideology

tbf he was an isolated if virulent case, and long been used as a brush to unfairly tar the Palestinian cause in general, but still there are historical roots leading to Hamas etc

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

So that is the political space that his supporters are trying to claim.

definitely, they just seem to be doing a pretty bad job of it

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I think Corbyn's problem is precisely that he is too nice and doesn't want to jettison his former allies/positions

he comes across more clueless than nice, to me

or, he does come across as genuinely nice, and personally incorruptible, in way which most politicians don't, and is totally commendable

but, it seems like he genuinely doesn't understand what's wrong, or the scope of what's wrong, which is troubling for a possible national leader

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Bernie is obviously his closest direct comparison in American politics

they share the same attractive - especially to younger people cynical about electoral politics - air of personal integrity and incorruptibility

but Bernie seems much savvier, harder-nosed (as opposed to simply stubborn), and realistic in tempering his ideals

that's one of those for better or worse, double-edged sword things

 

[DannyL]

Yeah, I don't read him as nice, not when he's challenged anyway. Something that might make sense of him is the fact that he voted against his own party something like 400+ times, when they were in power. Quite a streak. His career is defined by going against the grain. Defined by holding marginal positions.