padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
as I also said initially, I feel for anyone with relatively left politics who has to vote in this upcoming election
the socialism of fools
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luka
Well-known member
That I'm not so sure about. Most people here don't know any Jews. I don't know any. There's very few in this country.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
droid + I don't disagree fundamentally on Israel, which I know to be true because we've talked about it
there's a gulf of distance between Corbyn and not colluding with the actions (including crimes) of the Israeli govt
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
not by itself maybe, but it will definitely be a factor - look at the way the Labour Party is eating itself alive over it
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
put it like this: it's totally fair to hold Israel to a higher standard. they proclaim it themselves, whether or not they live up to it.
but where is this dude on crimes perpetrated in ways/by people that don't fit into that worldview of righteous resistance? fucking nowhere
it's what Danny was getting at above
tbf it's not just Corbyn, it's a typical failing of the left to critically engage with the flaws of people and movements that ideologically we'd like to support
or to be blinded by that support
of course, imperial violence is almost always worse. that doesn't mean you can just condemn it and then overlook it when it's someone you like.
but where is this dude on crimes perpetrated in ways/by people that don't fit into that worldview of righteous resistance? fucking nowhere
it's what Danny was getting at above
tbf it's not just Corbyn, it's a typical failing of the left to critically engage with the flaws of people and movements that ideologically we'd like to support
or to be blinded by that support
of course, imperial violence is almost always worse. that doesn't mean you can just condemn it and then overlook it when it's someone you like.
sufi
lala
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-my-jewish-ancestry-1.58487 I met Corbyn many years ago, i found him very humble and impressive. I was pretty surprised to see him as party leader. The anti-semitism issue is a skewer for him, and the labour party is a toxic hole.
Who's been to Israel, then? There's a fair bit more to it than the Govt
luka
Well-known member
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-my-jewish-ancestry-1.58487 I met Corbyn many years ago, i found him very humble and impressive. I was pretty surprised to see him as party leader. The anti-semitism issue is a skewer for him, and the labour party is a toxic hole.
Who's been to Israel, then? There's a fair bit more to it than the Govt
Woops went on a sex holiday to Israel. He loved it. He said all they eat is meat and bread, just like him.
sufi
lala
are you sure about this?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
my dad's lived there for 30+ years. he grew up secular, became very religious in his late 20s, divorced my mom, moved there, etc.
he's very right-wing in a very Israeli sense - socially liberal (he volunteered for Democrat campaigns in college), but ultrahawkish, hates Palestinians, etc. Staunch Shas voter. we don't talk much.
I've never been. had the chance to when I was younger, passed on it for both personal and political reasons.
I do try to get people to differentiate between Israel, the Israeli govt, and individual Israelis, because they are all different things that get lumped together as "Israel"
he's very right-wing in a very Israeli sense - socially liberal (he volunteered for Democrat campaigns in college), but ultrahawkish, hates Palestinians, etc. Staunch Shas voter. we don't talk much.
I've never been. had the chance to when I was younger, passed on it for both personal and political reasons.
I do try to get people to differentiate between Israel, the Israeli govt, and individual Israelis, because they are all different things that get lumped together as "Israel"
luka
Well-known member
Yeah
sufi
lala
Yeah you got it
luka
Well-known member
I remember the first time I heard an anti Semitic slur. I was in my 20s. I thought, how weird, you must have learned that off telly cos there's no way you could have met enough Jews to have a grudge against them. It was a builder I was working for.
You just don't generally meet Jews over here. How would you even form an opinion?
You probably pick yours up in the mosque Sufi.
sufi
lala
i guess my point is we all have prejudices, there's been A-S in UK since time immemorial, since the very foundation of the state, it's part of the culture - look at Tottenham FC
& its present in the left, the labour party, the various palestinian and anti-israel and mid-east groups
i struggle to see jc as a deliberate anti-semite, but he's certainly not covered himself in glory throughout this episode
& its present in the left, the labour party, the various palestinian and anti-israel and mid-east groups
i struggle to see jc as a deliberate anti-semite, but he's certainly not covered himself in glory throughout this episode