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Also corporate feudalism post the collapse of all small independent business.

Yeah. That's looking likely. But didn't you want to kill all business owners last week? Like a firebreak? Cool.

If one thing's worth preserving, in my view as literally not a communist, it's the freedom to start a nice little business if you want to.
 

luka

Well-known member
Yeah. That's looking likely. But didn't you want to kill all business owners last week? Like a firebreak? Cool.

If one thing's worth preserving, in my view as literally not a communist, it's the freedom to start a nice little business if you want to.

Eh? Did I? Not as far as I can remember. Not saying it's impossible.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
a big culprit is the corporate culture of not being allowed to say 'I don't know' that's seeped into the rules of institutions. In the end, it's just employees answering to bosses who demand a bottom line conclusion. Was it going to be a crisis or not? It probably wouldn't, right, and we need an answer, so let's just say it's not gonna come up here. Everyone else is saying the same. Nobody has time for a detailed layout of probabilities and contingencies. Move on.
 

version

Well-known member
a big culprit is the corporate culture of not being allowed to say 'I don't know' that's seeped into the rules of institutions. In the end, it's just employees answering to bosses who demand a bottom line conclusion. Was it going to be a crisis or not? It probably wouldn't, right, and we need an answer, so let's just say it's not gonna come up here. Everyone else is saying the same. Nobody has time for a detailed layout of probabilities and contingencies. Move on.

I just read someone comparing it to working in IT,

Chicago Doctor’s Blunt Speech About COVID-19: "A successful shelter in place means that you will feel like it was all for nothing. And you would be right. Because 'nothing' means that nothing happened to your family."

Work in IT. I hope it goes better than our field. We try to tell people that if everything seems normal then that means we are doing our job. Years go by without outages, we spend money investing in improvements... then board/CEO tries to cut our budget with the logic “nothing ever happens, why is their budget so big??”
 

kumar

Well-known member
wooh look what ive missed! to be clear i’m not "attacking the “economic argument” whatsoever. part of the point was that the idea of 91 year olds dying who would have had another 6 months anyway is an abstract concept until you’ve experienced what that ends up looking like, and the consequences of that mass trauma are intertwined with the economic fallout of this. it will affect what kind of approaches people want to follow during the clean up, what kind of public attitudes are appropriate, even if we ultimately all end up deferring to the tech bro implanters.

yes there are measures that can be taken which will mainly reduce the immediate spread of the virus, and measures that can best maintain the economy.

but they’re a lot more messily entangled than say boosting your necromancy xp at the expense of your stamina. like padraig said there will be lots of inflection points between the two.

i think the “generational inconvenience” phrase might have been in the hitchens thing, i didnt read it, but its an idea, its out there, i don’t think anyone here is complaining about it. but its worth keeping an eye on.

i’m not optimistic about the net positive outcomes of a brutal recession either but seems to me like some things have become unstuck in quite a short space of time like droid said.

one mundane example might be attitudes to do with the funding of public health services. again it is far too early to call how superficial this will be.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
i really don't know if you could have predicted this from, say, beginning of februrary, maybe you could. right now, the responsible people are saying that they couldn't possibly have known given the available data.

it's not about that tho is it? it's about admitting that you don't know and going off the worst case scenario. but that's not how it works with bosses and employees.

let's say 9 times out of 10 a risk that looks like corona did isn't gonna be a big deal. the people who say it't no big deal are going to be right 9 out of 10 times. these are the ones getting the promotions over the person saying, well we really don't know, do we? this behavior is encouraged systemically.
 

droid

Well-known member
A major pandemic was third on my list of most likely global threats and I know almost nothing about anything.

In all the literature about about the threat over the last 15 years or so, the message has been clear. It was a case of when, not if.

And despite all the carnage, misery and tragedy thats happening and coming over the next few months, this is far from the worst case scenario.
 

droid

Well-known member
I don't think we're going to learn anything. I think we're going to get stern words, hand wringing and a few gestures followed by business as usual, people going to back to believing everything the right tell them to and a continuation of everything which contributed to the issue in the first place. 2008 all over again basically. People never learn.

Well 2008 and the response has had a profound impact on politics and society, so...
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
i really don't know if you could have predicted this from, say, beginning of februrary, maybe you could. right now, the responsible people are saying that they couldn't possibly have known given the available data.

it's not about that tho is it? it's about admitting that you don't know and going off the worst case scenario. but that's not how it works with bosses and employees.

let's say 9 times out of 10 a risk that looks like corona did isn't gonna be a big deal. the people who say it't no big deal are going to be right 9 out of 10 times. these are the ones getting the promotions over the person saying, well we really don't know, do we? this behavior is encouraged systemically.

Definitely could have predicted it was likely - even the US intelligence agencies got there: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/20/politics/us-intelligence-reports-trump-coronavirus/index.html
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
let's say 9 times out of 10 a risk that looks like corona did isn't gonna be a big deal
I think that with Sars, swine flu it started off and people were saying "it's gonna come here" or at least "it may come here" and ultimately it didn't end up like this in the UK and so it had a bit of a boy cried wolf effect - that's unfair because it implies that people were being dishonest or shouting too much about it - but I'm sure that a lot of people disregarded this thinking "heard it all before".
 

luka

Well-known member
I don't think we're going to learn anything. I think we're going to get stern words, hand wringing and a few gestures followed by business as usual, people going to back to believing everything the right tell them to and a continuation of everything which contributed to the issue in the first place. 2008 all over again basically. People never learn.

I'm wth droid. I think it's inconceivable this doesn't have major world changing ramifications.
 

luka

Well-known member
And which lessons were learned? Did we turn away from prioritising profit over everything? Did we stop bailing out corporations at the expense of the tax payer? Have we jailed the people responsible? As far as I can tell we basically patched it up, fucked over the people who actually keep the economy going, let the people responsible get away scott-free and carried on with the same doomed model as before. It's not as though it's the first crash either. It happens over and over.

The lesson learned was build a wall/get Brexit done. He said a profound impact not lessons learned.
 

droid

Well-known member
Yeah, but he was responding to me and I said lessons learned, not profound impact. Of course it's going to have a profound impact. It's going to have a profoundly negative impact because we're going to end up suffering exacerbated versions of the same problems already making people's lives a misery because nobody ever learns.

Plenty of people learned plenty of lessons, power refused to listen, hence the rise of the right.
 
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