malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
I gave you a very good strategy, the only strategy. If you don't believe me watch Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind.
I agreed with your strategy earlier, but that's not the only strategy. I mean, I admit that any viable strategy must recognize the other side as worth talking to, but that doesn't exactly tell me how to attack the manosphere. In a way your strategy is more of a pre-condition for any viable strategy. Of course, we have to listen to the other side, the side of hypermasculinity. The question is, what are we going to tell them?

And I love Nausicaa. I love Miyazaki. My favorite movie of his is Princess Mononoke. Ashitaka is a male lesbian. But why is Nausicaa relevant?
 

sus

Well-known member
And I love Nausicaa. I love Miyazaki. My favorite movie of his is Princess Mononoke. Ashitaka is a male lesbian. But why is Nausicaa relevant?
Nausicaa is a diplomat who ends a war by refusing to fight its battles as warrior. Lots of gender splitting in that film too; the men are always the warriors and the women are the peace-makers/bridge-builders. Asbel, then, is a male lesbian with your framework—he's the prince of his tribe, who is essentially won over to Nausicaa's way of seeing/thinking, which is to seek cooperation and mutual understanding, rather than eradicate threats.

The question is, what are we going to tell them?
Well, I'm not sure, it's a good question!
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
Another open question: does anyone on this forum want to represent femininity while remaining a man? Surely we can all agree that femininity is under-represented in our society, right?
 

sus

Well-known member
What does Nausicaa tell Asbel, or the raging Ohms?

Some combination of "You're hurting me / killing my people" + a costly signal of her suffering. That's why things change after the baby ohm watches her get her foot burnt in the acid lake. He sees the suffering and stops.
 

sus

Well-known member
The other main dynamic Nausicaa notices is that the insects/ohms/rival kingdoms' aggression is caused by fear. That any aggression from them is in actuality a pre-emptive defensive strike. They're not a terrifying Other, they're not an enemy—they're terrified. She has to convince them she's not out to hurt them, that she comes in peace.
 

sus

Well-known member
So as far as I can see, the usual "feminist" response (read: not "feminine"—in fact, quite masculine of a response, to use your paradigm) to incel culture is exactly the wrong approach. It's the napalm approach, the flamethrower approach. Burn these disgusting people out, shame them, excommunicate them, call them pathetic worms.
 

version

Well-known member
Another open question: does anyone on this forum want to represent femininity while remaining a man?

What does that look like? Bit of a vague statement.

Surely we can all agree that femininity is under-represented in our society, right?

I don't know. The biggest pop stars are mostly women. The media's focus is currently on women and minorities. Whether or not I feel corporate diversity is sincere, things certainly feel more balanced in terms of it not just being straight white guys all over TV, cinema, music and magazines.
 

sus

Well-known member
You figure out what they're scared of, and you give them some costly show of good faith. That's what lets them put away their silly toy swords and sit down at a negotiating table to have a conversation. We haven't even gotten to "What do we say once they're at the table"—that's its own question—but at least we have them at the table.
 

version

Well-known member
So as far as I can see, the usual "feminist" response (read: not "feminine"—in fact, quite masculine of a response, to use your paradigm) to incel culture is exactly the wrong approach. It's the napalm approach, the flamethrower approach. Burn these disgusting people out, shame them, excommunicate them, call them pathetic worms.

You can't blame them too much. The incel stuff is fucking horrible.
 

sus

Well-known member
I don't know. The biggest pop stars are mostly women. The media's focus is currently on women and minorities. Whether I not I feel corporate diversity is sincere, things certainly feel more balanced in terms of it not just being straight white guys all over the TV, cinema, music and magazines.
I think the admirable feminine-coded virtues that MaleLesbian cares about are in fact under-represented. There are just plenty of other toxic femine-coded virtues that are endemic to modern society, and seem to have combined with some of the most toxic masculinist values.
 

version

Well-known member
I think the admirable feminine-coded virtues that MaleLesbian cares about are in fact under-represented. There are just plenty of other toxic femine-coded virtues that are endemic to modern society, and seem to have combined with some of the most toxic masculinist values.
a marriage of the hermeneutics of suspicion and might is right.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
You can't blame them too much. The incel stuff is fucking horrible.

it's horrible but it is possible to tune out of it. And it is possible to tune out of Andrew Tate's vomit as well.

This doesn't mean ignore, but it says miles that feminism only cares about the right kinds of liberal bourgeois women, whilst claiming to be much more expansive than that.

As a communist, I'm unafraid to say I am a proponent of the avant-garde/vanguard of the proletariat, not all proles with all their muddled opinions as a whole. But feminism by nature precludes that, precisely because of its broad attempt to be cross class, it must claim to represent all women, which it obviously can't, maybe with the exception of certain legislations E.G: womans right to abortion, but this cannot ust be seen as a feminist demand, imo and it is insulting to non-feminist women to frame it as such.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
culture warring as the cornerstone of liberalism, which is sufficient to disqualify ml from being a marxist, no matter how much he has convinced himself otherwise.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
@malelesbian do you fetishise fighting women in the octagon while moist?
No, I just watch joshi.
I think a big problem of social isolation underlies incel culture and for that reason I want to at least reach out to socially isolated people, since those people are most vulnerable to radicalization. I think de-radicalization is a strong pacifist strategy for stopping the spread of this toxic misogyny and sexism that defines incel culture. One way I think to promote feminine culture is to reinforce connections between people for the sake of building a community. Society atomizes too many people these days and makes them think of themselves as individuals detached from any reality other than their life and whatever the internet shows. But with social isolated people, they only really have the internet sometimes, and that makes them very susceptible to falling for the pseudoscientific Social Darwinism (in the perjorative sense) of the incels. I want a culture where people are free to defy dominant norms of gender as much as they want. Butler saw how divisive feminism could be when she identified an exclusionary tendency in second-wave feminism, which hyperfocused on a single type of (arguably bourgeois) woman. Butler made it so the subject of feminism could be people with many different identities, including non-binary individuals, transfolk and more. If my theory of the male lesbian is right, she even opened the door for a feminism seen from a male perspective. Once we can recognize that our perspectives are male ones, we can begin to imagine what the feminine perspective looks like and hopefully express our image of femininity in a concrete cultural artifact. On a mundane level, I'm really just saying that men should get more in touch with their feminine side.
 
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