Benny Bunter

Well-known member
The other approach is to translate word by word and also provide loads of translator's notes, like Pierre Joris' translations of Celan. That works well in that particular case, but it wouldn't in all cases, and you always have to sacrifice something. I suppose if you really want to get into someone like Rimbaud or Celan and you don't understand French or German the best thing to do is read as many different translations as possible.
 

luka

Well-known member
a lot of what distinguishes a poet is ear. my ear is exceptional. im very good with sound patterning and all that is lost with translation. but something comes through i think. i have a sense of rimbaud or rilke, of their poetic projects, their attitude or bearing towards the world. a sense of who they were as poets. poets are like varieties of saint. you get a sense of their peculiarities.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Yes, you have to be 'plugged in' to know what's what. Which sounds vague but I don't really know how else to express it, it's so subjective
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Unless you're a real poet yourself you shouldn't even attempt to translate someone imo. That's more important than knowing the language you're translating from - it's not like Pound knew any Chinese but he still produced some good poems 'from' the Chinese.
 

okzharp

Well-known member
'poetry is the geometry of the soul'
always quite liked that one by Gustave Flaubert

also a banger from Adrienne Rich, 'the moment of change is the only poem'

i remember Jason Wilson saying in a lecture once that translating Lorca was like peeling an orange and eating the peel
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Watched a few videos with pound reading his poems on YouTube last night. Naively astounded by the Nazis at work in the comments underneath his "usury" canto. "He knew. Just read the protocols 👃✡️" type guys. But then I also didn't realise Pound thought Hitler a "saint", railed against "kikes" on those broadcasts etc.

But of course Flaubert was a pederast, Tolstoy a misogynist, Luke Davies (bankside poet genius) hates Nigerians etc. Great artists are always hateful, alas.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Then read (deplorable habit, reading 'around') various articles about Pound, including some spirited defences of him, in LRB archives, e.g.


"But the ‘problem of evil’ in Pound’s work is not the problem of its anti-semitism or fascism as such: it is the problem of whether ‘literature’ – those ‘great works ... of Western tradition’ – can embrace, can be imagined to embrace, ideas or attitudes of ‘acknowledged evil’. Casillo’s view – it is a commonplace one – is that immorality is a devaluing presence in literary work, and that ‘evil’ simply vitiates the possibility of artistic or cultural value.

But Pound’s work may be read, and in my view should be read, as a critique of that very idea, the idea that art is a representation or execution of the best that has been known and thought in the world. In 1940 Pound’s fascism and anti-semitism were peculiarly intense, and he had just published Cantos LII-LXXI of his masterwork. In that same year Benjamin published his ‘Theses on the Philosophy of History’ in the Neue Rundschau. The ‘Theses’ are (among other things) a Marxist’s critique of fascism, and in this respect they might seem to have little in common with Pound’s work. But when Benjamin says that an enlightened mind ‘cannot contemplate without horror’ its inheritance of ‘cultural treasures’, he formulates an aesthetic theory for which a work like the Cantos is the perfect exponent.

‘There is no document of civilisation which is not at the same time a document of barbarism,’ Benjamin argues. For Benjamin, as for his contemporaries Céline and Bataille, literature’s value lies precisely in the journey it takes to the end of the night. The presence of ‘evil’ in poetry is, therefore, paradoxically, the ultimate measure of its authenticity."
 

jenks

thread death
a lot of what distinguishes a poet is ear. my ear is exceptional. im very good with sound patterning and all that is lost with translation. but something comes through i think. i have a sense of rimbaud or rilke, of their poetic projects, their attitude or bearing towards the world. a sense of who they were as poets. poets are like varieties of saint.
That’s the key. I was reading how the 18thC, I think, German translations of Shakespeare have become the standard versions, for the Germans they are Shakespeare. They give the reader that sense of the writer, their stance and bearing.

Barnes did a good piece on the range of translations of Bovary and how each was as much about the translation as it was about the original. We can’t even agree on the title of Proust, let alone the rows over the famous opening line.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
That craner essay is superb.

Those later Italian anti-Semitic poems in the cantos he talks about are bad and ugly on every level. Canto XLV "With usura no man ..." is an incredibly powerful piece of writing though, what are your thoughts on that one @craner ?
 

craner

Beast of Burden
That craner essay is superb.

Those later Italian anti-Semitic poems in the cantos he talks about are bad and ugly on every level. Canto XLV "With usura no man ..." is an incredibly powerful piece of writing though, what are your thoughts on that one @craner ?

Good but sinister, like the EUR district in Rome.
 

sufi

lala
or prhaps they just chose the most cliched and predictable lines imaginable
FwBFm1rWAAE8tGZ
 

jenks

thread death
i have just finished a big binge on Forster which led me to his time in Alexandria during WW1 where he met Cavafy. I'd forgotten how much i liked him - a totally distinctive voice which could come across quite arid - so many poems about obscure characters from classic antiquity - but some kind of beauty in there that i find very moving. I think i am always swayed by a sentimental strain in poetry... Again, i'm going to guess that he suffers from less good translations early on which more modern editions are attempting to fix.

 
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