Full of the milk of human kindness and empathy, here.
Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
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Please do. I welcome the comments from you and Droid, as you're both informed enough over the long term to be critical of the things I've posted.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
That's a curious assertion. On what basis are you making it? How many Palestinians have you ever met? Of course not all of them support Hamas or hate all Jews in general, but I think you'd have to go some way to find any with a kind word to say about Israel.
The friend I mentioned earlier was living and working in Beirut some years ago, and I went over to see him. He knew a bunch of other Palestinians there and we all met up. None of these people were Islamists or even practicing Muslims, as far as I could tell, but they wouldn't even say the word "Israel". It was an actual taboo. Their name for it, hilariously, was "Disneyland."
chava
Well-known member
A lot of palestinians work in Israel
chava
Well-known member
You mean in Egypt?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
And that means they don't mind its existence, or think it's a good thing?
You might as well argue that black people in apartheid-era South Africa didn't mind it, since not all of them left the country.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
That is literally impossible. The Rafah crossing, the only way to go into Egypt, has been closed for days. Even if were open, it could only handle an infinitesimal fraction of the people trying to flee, let alone in the next 24 hours. The Israeli govt is fully aware of this, as is anyone with even the most basic grasp of the situation.
The biggest reason Egypt doesn't want Palestinians, beyond the general unpopularity of accepting large numbers of refugees in every country ever, is that once they leave it's extremely likely they'll never able to return. That's exactly what happened in 1948 and 1967. It's how Lebanon and Jordan wound up with millions of refugees living in permanent camps. No govt would want that. It would also be ethnic cleansing, just like it was in 48 and 67.
And collective punishment - starving an entire population and driving them from their homes - is morally indefensible, as well as a war crime.
Also, I'm probably done responding to your posts in this thread. It's not about disagreeing POVs, it's that your posts are consistently so ignorant and unserious, and you seem so uninterested in making any effort at all to become less ignorant, that they're not worth engaging with.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
The SA apartheid comparison isn't 1:1 across the board but in that element it pretty much is
Palestinians working in Israel bc economic opportunities in Gaza are slim to none and people have to make a living /= liking or supporting the Israeli govt
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Like I said T this guy is so ignorant it's not really worth engaging with
chava
Well-known member
Most people prefer a stable economy and being able to support their families. Of course you can get to the point where you are in a cult like Nazi Germany or apparently currently in the Gaza strip where people are ideologically obsessed/brainwashed (take your pick) to prefer death
chava
Well-known member
Ok, keep acting like a sophomore pol student who read "books".
I am not condoning Israels policies, mind you. But obviously you've seems to have taken Al-Sisis side.
How many Ukrainians refugees are there in Poland btw 1-2 mio? Will they return?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Yeah I will if I can sit down later with a laptop. It's too complicated to type on a phone.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, I think you might be right here.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Yeah definitely done with you after this, just have to note it really made laugh that this is the second time you've responded to being told you have no idea what the hell you're talking about by specifically attacking reading books (or I'm sorry, "books") as pretentious, which is hilarious.
And laughs have been hard to come by lately so, sincerely, thanks for that.
(And btw, it's not just al-Sisi. Egyptian policy toward Palestinians has the been same all the way back thru Mubarak and Sadat to Nasser. Now next time you make that false accusation against someone you can at least get the details right. Hope it helps!)
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Also I'll just repeat obligatory disclaimer that one is always forced to make in re Isr/Pal to stave off whataboutism
Doesn't matter how many times you make it, always gonna be some chud yelling "but what about the -Arab- govts? Checkmate, liberal" yes, they're bad
Doesn't matter how many times you make it, always gonna be some chud yelling "but what about the -Arab- govts? Checkmate, liberal" yes, they're bad
chava
Well-known member
Always stylish to quote oneself.
hamas has been making the pivot to Iran since Khalid Meshal left. Meshal was very much in the lineage of syria/turkey/egyptian ikhwan lineage. Haniyeh is much less inclined to the old ikhwan/muslim brotherhood ideology (which has been the traditional bedrock of hamas.)
The failure of Morsi, Turkey in Syria, and of course the FSA to coordinate and centralise into a governmental structure able to topple Assad has led to this disaffection.
The other posts from the usual suspects aren't worth responding to here, adolescent flexing and all. enough of that in the creative class swamp anyway.
I don't really want to respond to this massively because I can guess who it is and I'd rather not engage with those types anymore than I am absolutely obliged to but settling and settler colonialism are not identical. This was actually an argument in early labour zionism, particularly from Bir Borochov who died days after the Balfour declaration. As far as he saw it, mass colonisation by charter as such would retard the development of the israeli-palestinian economy. What he called for was cultural assimilation of the Arabs (natives of Palestine) and heavy investment of Jewish capital (which was the wrong prognosis but that's neither here nor there.)
the bombings or hamas' bellicose nature, or even the events of black september are peripheral to this. If you read Hanan Ashrawi on this you can see why she was so furious at the reconcilliation letter which granted PLO recognition of the state of Israel, (very good) but the Israeli government only recognised the PLO as the legitimate authority of the Palestinian people, not palestinian statehood. It would be like England we don't recognise the Scottish state, of course, but we recognise the SNP (and only the SNP) as the legitimate representative of the Scottish people. It is doubly ironic that every tom dick and harry in the anglo world has adopted this self-hating inverted nazi paranoid idea that people in the middle east want to nuke israel off the map when that has been Israeli policy wrt Palestine written concretely.
There is no real state solution to this conflict anymore. The single state solution is what is taking place, the generalisation of apartheid to all of historical Palestine, what one might want to call greater Israel (although I am personally reluctant to use that term.) The two state solution is so unlikely simply because of the overwhelming settler ownership of land. How can you ask people to have sovereignty over lands they don't own, and what they own is 15-20% of their historical territories? This is not a state, it's not even a semi-state, it's just a generalisation of the conditions of gaza.
I know you hate blaming the US and whilst I share your sentiments this is really a global imperialist conflict. So far as Palestinians can coexist peacefully with Israelis (I'm almost tempted to say we but I won't grant the zionists the honour of considering their secular nationalist project to be in any way theological) an entire shift of nato, the arab countries and the middle east is necessary. The fact of the matter is, there is no good solution, and your friend engaging in whataboutism under the guise of criticism is heinous. We have to be sober and reasonable here.