mixed_biscuits
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Periclitous adj. dangerous, perilous
Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
This is some feeble, absurd nonsense even by biscuit's very low standards
But I'll address it bc it's based in the racist idea, often expressed by Zionists, most famously Golda Meir, that Arabs are interchangeable and there is no such thing as a Palestinian people
Egypt is not the Palestinian "promised land". Their home is Palestine. That alone is reason enough to oppose their forced expulsion at gunpoint.
They are not "willing and able workers" migrating for economic reasons. They would be refugees driven from their homes in Palestine by an Israeli military campaign, as previously happened in 1948 and 1967. If they leave, Israel will never let them back, just as it never let back the refugees of 48 or 67.
(Incidentally, The Egyptian economic crisis has nothing to do with a shortage of labor. Unemployment is high.)
This was already obvious, but the issue is not immigration, or refugees, per se but the number of people as well as lack of any resolution to the denial of a Palestinian state.
The Sinai is sparsely populated. Palestinians would instantly quadruple its population. There is zero infrastructure to support 2.2 million refugees. The situation of Gaza would simply be recreated in new camps with even greater deprivation.
Ethnic cleansing would not end the very logical Palestinian desire for a Palestinian state in Palestine (realistically, based on 1967 borders). Besides the destabilization it would bring to Egypt, there is a very strong chance that the IDF would eventually begin launching campaigns into Sinai against Hamas or whoever replaces them, a la Lebanon, as well as the typical Mossad etc assassination campaigns. No govt would willingly sign up for that.
I will note that the Egyptian govt has a very poor record with refugees, primarily from Sudan. I'll also repeat that the treatment of Palestinians by Arab govts has been largely poor, and Egypt's underwhelming humanitarian efforts during this war only add to that record. However, as bad as those things are, they are secondary here to the Israeli desire to ethnically cleanse 2.2mn Palestinians from Gaza.
The obvious massive benefit to Israel is transferring all responsibility to Egypt and being able to deal with it as simply a security issue rather than the global embarrassment and society-poisoning effects of operating a bantustan. There is little benefit and massive downside for Egypt, which is why the Israelis have been trying to unsuccessfully buy off Egyptian leaders since the 50s.
Couching ethnic cleansing in humanitarian terms for a humanitarian crisis that Israel is creating is just the latest, and deeply Orwellian, twist on Israeli Gaza expulsion fantasy
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Btw that post was so dumb that if it was anyone besides biscuits I would take it as over the top Onion style satire of RW Israeli rhetoric
mixed_biscuits
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So basically you and Tea would prefer that Palestinians get ethnically cleansed by being killed than ethnically cleansed by being relocated.
'The nation doesn't need more workers' is a right wing trope: the 2 million Palestinians won't just be working for the Egyptians there already but for their own requirements. To make it clear for you, imagine a large tract of land with ten people in it, which people are self-sufficient. The ten people don't need 50,000 refugees to turn up but, should that happen, you would still get a properly functioning society because the refugees would serve their own needs.
Yes yes precise ethnic differences matter and each racial group should have its own well guarded and delimited ethnostate...another massive right wing trope.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
@mixed_biscuits Is there a particular reason why your ethical approach to Israel (but only Israel) is one of hard-nosed amoral pragmatism, I.e. "it is rational for Israel to remove the threat to their people by pounding Gaza for as long as a single Hamas militant remains alive and unsurrendered", complete with a might-is-right justification for why it should be Hamas that surrenders rather than Israel rather than the reverse, while when it comes to Egypt, you suddenly turn fiercely moralistic, viz. "It would be bigoted and cruel for Egypt not to accept 2.3 million refugees with open arms"?
mixed_biscuits
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I don't understand this thing about Israel missing the imminent attack on them. I can understand them finding a threat unrealistic if it's qualitatively different to what they've experienced or expect e.g. if intelligence says a plane will be coming over the border but it's an F-16 rather than a microlight...but this isn't what happened. What they were confronted with was things they already knew about, plausible threats but all at once. Each of these threats, singly, would have been believed.
Conclusion, if this line of argument is correct: Israel were complicit in the attack presumably because it would justify their subsequent actions.
A corollary is that Hamas are even more closely connected to Israel and part of the deal is for them to continue to 'resist' so that Israel can continue to remodel the region.
This would mean that Hamas are not to be sympathised at all as they are properly in cahoots with Israel, but the uninvolved citizenry is still very much to be sympathised with.
Conclusion, if this line of argument is correct: Israel were complicit in the attack presumably because it would justify their subsequent actions.
A corollary is that Hamas are even more closely connected to Israel and part of the deal is for them to continue to 'resist' so that Israel can continue to remodel the region.
This would mean that Hamas are not to be sympathised at all as they are properly in cahoots with Israel, but the uninvolved citizenry is still very much to be sympathised with.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I reject that binary entirely. I'd prefer that Palestinians be neither killed in massive numbers by a military campaign of collective punishment nor ethnically cleansed via expulsion. I'd also like Israeli politicians, and their shills, to stop advocating for forced population transfer in gaslighting humanitarian terms as a way of defending that campaign.
The only one arguing for an ethnostate here is you. As always, you won't know this bc of your general ignorance, but Israel specficially enshrined its ethnostate character in the Basic Law of 2018 (and more broadly Zionism itself ofc rests on a blood and soil conception of Israel as the eternal homeland of the Jewish people, rather than an entity that was created thru human agency).
I'm arguing for people not to be expelled from their homes at gunpoint and to have self-determination rather than foreign military occupation. I would also support a one-state solution where all citizens had full and equal civil and political rights, but since that is a virtual impossibility - the Israelis will never, ever agree to it - a two-state solution is more realistic.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Anyway, this is just typical biscuits horseshit of fixating on single point with willful misunderstanding and endlessly shifting goalposts bc you're incapable of arguing anything on merits. It's been answered in far more detail than it deserved and I'm done with it.
Edit: I thought I'd seen the dumbest take possible but that Oct 7 truther one is dumber. Such a preposterous idea for so many reasons that it makes 9/11 truther takes look measured and reasonable.
Edit: I thought I'd seen the dumbest take possible but that Oct 7 truther one is dumber. Such a preposterous idea for so many reasons that it makes 9/11 truther takes look measured and reasonable.
vimothy
yurp
I cant remember where I read this, unfortunately, I'll try to dig it out of my history though. the thing I thought interesting about it is that Qatar seems like the one actor in the region with a certain amount of legitimacy on all sides, but then, its hard to see what they would get from it and also hard to see what kind of agreement would be necessary on the israeli side for it to be feasible.first, expelling all of Gaza to Egypt isn't new, it's been an Israeli fantasy since 1948. it's been tried many times in many different forms and it's always been an non-starter. and rn is an especially bad time bc Egypt is already experiencing an economic crisis and serious instability, the last thing it needs is 2 million refugees and the resulting tidal wave of social and political upheaval. here's an article which goes thru the history (you'll like it, very behind the scenes realist geopolitics).
Gaza and the Making of a New Middle East Order - Geopolitical Futures
The ferocity of the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas will reshape the Middle East. Its brutality is reminiscent of World War II's final battles, whichgeopoliticalfutures.com
I haven't seen anything about Qatar, but I question how that would even work. it is true that Qatar is the de facto intermediary in the Iran-Saudi/Israeli cold war and the only place that successfully plays all sides - i.e. a close American ally that simultaneously funds Hamas and hosts its exiled leadership - so I assume the thinking is that it would be acceptable to all sides, unlike some kind of international administration and peacekeeping force which it's very hard to see Israel agreeing to. but Qatar is also a tiny Arab minority ruling over a non-citizen, largely South Asian work force. how is it going to administrate and police Gaza? is the idea that there would be some kind of Qatari governor overseeing Palestinian civil administration with Qatari funding (or yunno funding from wherever, funneled thru Qatar)?
could you point toward an article or even some Twitter threads where someone has fleshed this idea out? it seems like a fantasy to me but I don't want to say for sure until I understand better what it is exactly
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Fuck off
Ollie please just don't give him the satisfaction of answering
Next level hatred. His death seems apposite to the moment somehow? As Biden's support for Israel exposes the moral vacuum at the heart of US policy.
I guess the only virtue of these answers is they make me realise how much the anti-Trans posts are a similar insincere performance.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I honestly don't know, though, and at this point I don't think he does, either. It's like Hamlet's 'antic disposition.'
entertainment
Well-known member
One thing I'm seeing a lot is this sort of exchange:
a: it was worse than any other thing in history. they mass raped all the women and children they got their hands on.
b: well there are records of rape but nothing to suggest that it was carried out wide scale or in systematic fashion.
a/c: wow so now we're relativising raping and killing of innocent women and kids. are you listening to yourself?
Seeing on both sides too.
a: idf are killing more civilians pr day than auschwitz
b: actually the numbers are like a third of the killing rate of auschwitz
a/c: ok so "they're only killing a third of what they did at auschwitz". great argument, are you listening to yourself?
I need @suspended or someone to tell me what this thing is called!
a: it was worse than any other thing in history. they mass raped all the women and children they got their hands on.
b: well there are records of rape but nothing to suggest that it was carried out wide scale or in systematic fashion.
a/c: wow so now we're relativising raping and killing of innocent women and kids. are you listening to yourself?
Seeing on both sides too.
a: idf are killing more civilians pr day than auschwitz
b: actually the numbers are like a third of the killing rate of auschwitz
a/c: ok so "they're only killing a third of what they did at auschwitz". great argument, are you listening to yourself?
I need @suspended or someone to tell me what this thing is called!
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
"human nature"?
mixed_biscuits
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Spoken like a true Conservative
vimothy
yurp
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza.
www.972mag.com
worth reading - comprehensive investigation into isreal's bombing campaign in gaza and the evolution of its strategy of targeting public infrastructure and civilian homes.
mixed_biscuits
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Interesting documentary vid: