Pretentious Crap

[josef k.]

"The question is whether the changes that such external pressure can cause are fundamental enough to change not just personality but the nature of what personality even is (and in fact to actually call it into existence where it didn't exist before)."

I think so. Consider the dimension of personality which comes through in writing, for instance, in terms of style. Without writing, this wouldn't exist.

 

[vimothy]

Let the guinea pig speak!

Anyway, IdleRich, is there a real difference between "personality" and "the nature of what personality is"?

It is difficult to speak of these things (the relationship between 'identity' and the words used to describe it, e.g.), but Wikipedia has,

Identity is an umbrella term used throughout the social sciences to describe an individual's comprehension of him or herself as a discrete, separate entity

So, yes, I think what I mean by identity is something like "the construction of the individual" as an individual (by that individual, which necessarily involves everyone else). Unless I'm totally misunderstanding that phrase.

Obviously there are biological as well as sociocultural determinants, and the exact mix is the subject of some dispute... But it seems to me that identity is in a large part a sociocultural enterprise. (Not that I am arguing for an understanding humans as being 'more happy when X held', or that society now is incapable or providing for the needs of humanity).

 

[vimothy]

Consider the dimension of personality which comes through in writing, for instance, in terms of style. Without writing, this wouldn't exist.

"On the internet, no one knows you're a dog."

 

[zhao]

Well you're making points that are too general.

It depends what work you do - I gladly work more than I need to because I enjoy and see the point of what I have to do. I think, by and large, that I am fulfilled - despite living in a modern, Western, capitalist society. And I haven't bought a shiny car to achieve this either.

i also enjoy my work, to an extent. but i think it is a minority of the population who can say this with any truthfulness.

well, i am fond of making generalizations like "modern capitalist society is a disease ridden cow with not too many breaths left"

and yes i think there were/are, much better ways to organize/live our lives.

and i will continue to talk about all of this regardless of what you think.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I think so. Consider the dimension of personality which comes through in writing, for instance, in terms of style. Without writing, this wouldn't exist.

This isn't correct - surely writing reflects or educes the personality rather than creates it.

 

[zhao]

(Not that I am arguing for an understanding humans as being 'more happy when X held', or that society now is incapable or providing for the needs of humanity).

1/3 of people in modern industrialized societies are starving at this moment. an equal or greater percentage do not have clean water to drink. and you want to talk about "capable of providing for the needs of humanity"???

 

[mixed_biscuits]

i also enjoy my work, to an extent. but i think it is a minority of the population who can say this with any truthfulness.

well, i am fond of making generalizations like "modern capitalist society is a disease ridden cow with not too many breaths left"

and yes i think there were/are, much better ways to organize/live our lives.

and i will continue to talk about all of this regardless of what you think.

Okay fine, but I would argue that modern capitalist society gives the greatest latitude to its inhabitants to create their own society within it. For instance, there's nothing stopping me and my chums from establishing our own commune and doing, within reason, whatever we want. (I know that this is not the case for many others).

As far as job satisfaction goes, this may be, to some extent, a manufactured desire or disappointment. Personally, I'm quite capable of feeling miserable about my situation, however stimulating it might be.

 

[vimothy]

1/3 of people in modern industrialized societies are starving at this moment. an equal or greater percentage do not have clean water to drink. and you want to talk about "capable of providing for the needs of humanity"???

I'm afraid so, though it's not really connected to the point I was making -- and I am not quite sure where you are getting your figures from.

 

[josef k.]

This isn't correct - surely writing reflects or educes the personality rather than creates it.

But how would a personality like that of Andy Warhol, for example, or Tolstoy, have been possible in the Stone Age?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

But how would a personality like that of Andy Warhol, for example, or Tolstoy, have been possible in the Stone Age?

Warhol would have collected thousands of identically-shaped objects of minutely varied hues and Tolstoy would have regaled his mates around the campfire in complicated Russian. I grant the point about the importance of accumulated culture, but think that the disposition that makes someone an artist is something intrinsic to them, part of the human stuff. Culture merely refracts, magnifies its expression.

Surely your argument is a bit like saying that changing the shape of a shadow changes the nature of the sun.

 

[IdleRich]

Anyway, IdleRich, is there a real difference between "personality" and "the nature of what personality is"?

Yeah definitely. It's the difference between changing the players in a football team and changing the football team into a completely different thing - say a cabbage.

"i have no doubts that it can."

I know. But what leads you to think that?
I'm open minded as to this but I've not seen convincing arguments.
I guess there are two positions which are often confused - people had an extremely different (ie no) conception of identity a very long time ago and people had a surprisingly different conception of identity even as recently as two hundred years ago. These positions are often both held by the same people hence the confusion.
Basically my position is that the best insight into the minds of people from the relatively recent past is reading their literature (where it exists) and to me this reveals that although there are obvious differences, in the main, people had some extremely similar sense of self to us. As literature exists which predates the start of the 20th century which seems to be a date that some (say Adam Curtis) seem to think as being hugely significant for the emergence of individuals I tend to think that the second thesis is wrong.
As for the first? Time to study those tribes I guess.

"But how would a personality like that of Andy Warhol, for example, or Tolstoy, have been possible in the Stone Age?"

Well, just because the media doesn't exist for someone to express themself it doesn't mean that their personality wasn't the same as the Warhol of late 20th Century New York. Maybe it would have manifested itself in doing loads of ironic cave paintings of the hottest girl in the tribe that were identical but for their colours. Or in some other slightly artistic kind of way.

 

[josef k.]

"Well, just because the media doesn't exist for someone to express themself it doesn't mean that their personality wasn't the same as the Warhol of late 20th Century New York. Maybe it would have manifested itself in doing loads of ironic cave paintings of the hottest girl in the tribe that were identical but for their colours. Or in some other slightly artistic kind of way."

So where does personality come from, if not environment and accumulated experiences?

 

[Mr. Tea]

1/3 of people in modern industrialized societies are starving at this moment. an equal or greater percentage do not have clean water to drink. and you want to talk about "capable of providing for the needs of humanity"???

Hang on, hang on - people are starving or lacking clean water in countries that are industrialising. Or in those that are so fucked-up and war-torn that development has slowed to a halt or become negative. Bear in mind there was enormous poverty in what's now the developed world during the industrial revolution, and it wasn't until well into the last century that the slums were cleared and people stopped dying of TB and cholera.

I understand 'modern industrialised societies' to mean Europe, the US, Japan, Australia, Canada*...are you including countries like China and India in your definition? In which case you could well be right, but I'd take issue with your definitions of a modern industrial society.

*not that these countries don't have all sorts of problems of their own, or don't contribute to problems in other parts of the world - but as a rule starvation and communicable diseases aren't among them

 

[mixed_biscuits]

So where does personality come from, if not environment and accumulated experiences?

Maybe we should look at people with massive memory loss. I would guess that they still have desires, traits, tendencies - that is, 'personality.' Walk them round an art gallery and they would doubtless soon be able to express these facets of their being through the surrounding culture by feeling sympathetic to some works and antipathetic to others.

 

[josef k.]

Doubtless? And anyway, this doesn't really solve the problem of where those traits and desires and tendencies come from in the first place.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Hang on, hang on - people are starving or lacking clean water in countries that are industrialising.

Eggsactly

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Doubtless?

Do you really think that full blown amnesiacs would be some kind of living blank slates, walking vegetables, nonhumans?

I guess that the literature is out there in cognitive psychology/neuroscience.

 

[IdleRich]

Thing is, as I said, of course Tolstoy or whatever would have had a different life experience and done different stuff and may well have been a completely different person but would he have been a totally different kind of person?

So where does personality come from, if not environment and accumulated experiences?

Well, off the top of my head I would say it's a mixture of nature vs nurture I guess. But that's not the question I'm interested in (right now) which is, whether people then had any individual personality at all.

Anyway, going home now and no internet there any more. Why couldn't you lot have said the interesting stuff earlier when I was bored and free to talk?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Doubtless? And anyway, this doesn't really solve the problem of where those traits and desires and tendencies come from in the first place.

Inborn, evolved to ensure our survival.

A baby human, pig or chimp doesn't grasp at its mother's teat because it's read the latest anti-Nestle propaganda.

 

[vimothy]

Incidentally, less than a sixth of the world's total population is classified as 'hungry'.