mixed_biscuits

_________________________
As I see it, the main lie that advertising tell us (that we tell ourselves, in other words) is that our fundamental desires can be sated - that we can somehow transcend or finally satisfy the desire for food, sex... Sadly, we shall always be striving for these - we can never feel truly sated or at rest. It is desiring itself that we long to rid ourselves of.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
As I see it, the main lie that advertising tell us (that we tell ourselves, in other words) is that our fundamental desires can be sated - that we can somehow transcend or finally satisfy the desire for food, sex... Sadly, we shall always be striving for these - we can never feel truly sated or at rest. It is desiring itself that we long to rid ourselves of.

i would put it this way:

advertising creates false desires we can never satisfy.

where as a society with little wants (like the dobe) is able to satisfy all of them.

and that a contented, connected, leisurely life is more "natural" to the history of human life on earth than a condition of strife.

edit: by "more natural" i mean we as a species have spent much, much more time (millions of years) in one of the 2 states.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
i would put it this way:

advertising creates false desires we can never satisfy.

where as a society with little wants (like the dobe) is able to satisfy all of them -- and that a contented, connected, leisurely life is more "natural" to the history of human life on earth than a condition of strife.

I think advertising plays inauthentically off authentic desires - for instance, implying that buying a new vacuum cleaner will get you sex (bad example, but you know what I mean). Obv you want to get some action, as this is an innate, fundamental motivation but a new vacuum cleaner is not, contrary to the advertiser's claims, the best way to go about it.

The vast size of our society allows advertisers to claim that how you think things operate (vacuum cleaners are not great for pulling) is not the way things REALLY operate. This is because there are great swathes of society which you are not directly aware of. Advertisers play off the knowledge gap. They can play off this gap because other bearers of information can be authentic (eg Channel 4 news (okay, bad example)) and some of what the advertisers themselves say is often TRUE ('vacuum cleaners are also good for cleaning').

In a small society, there is little or no information gap - what you see is what you get. There is far less scope to be manipulated or to delude yourself as to the true nature of your desires (in other words, you don't want a new Dyson, you want minge) and how you could go about satisfying them.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
i would half agree with that -- because you fail to take into account the context and situation which is pre-requisite for such advertising to work: namely, when people are not getting enough sex, companionship, love, etc.

the "alienation" of our society makes it possible to sell substitutes.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
i would half agree with that -- because you fail to take into account the context and situation which is pre-requisite for such advertising to work: namely, when people are not getting enough sex, companionship, love, etc.

the "alienation" of our society makes it possible to sell substitutes.

Yes, I half agree with that. However, I think that your comment itself is the product of advertising: that there is always MORE out there and that you can NEVER HAVE ENOUGH...

And the size of our society means that we - with some justification - can expect that there may be something better, or something more, around the next corner...

Yes, I agree that people can be led to believe that substitutes can fill the gap. And, yes (no), they can't (fill all of it).
 

zhao

there are no accidents
I think that your comment itself is the product of advertising: that there is always MORE out there and that you can NEVER HAVE ENOUGH...

i did not say that.

what i did say is that if people are connected to eachother and themselves, if they have the love that they need, advertising would not work because you would not need to buy anything to fill the gap. there would be no gap.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
i did not say that.

what i did say is that if people are connected to eachother and themselves, if they have the love that they need, advertising would not work because you would not need to buy anything to fill the gap. there would be no gap.

Hmm yes, but a society in which everyone's desires can be fulfilled to their satisfaction is pie-in-the-sky. This fulfillment may also be a priori impossible because desires are, to some extent, mutually exclusive: for instance, exciting sex might not sit well with long-term companionship.
 

swears

preppy-kei
I think alienation and neurosis is more interesting than contentment and "authentic" experience. Have the Dobe ever produced a Dotskevsky or a Goya?
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Well you're making points that are too general.

It depends what work you do - I gladly work more than I need to because I enjoy and see the point of what I have to do. I think, by and large, that I am fulfilled - despite living in a modern, Western, capitalist society. And I haven't bought a shiny car to achieve this either. I don't even have an ipod or a telly.

That's nice and all, and I congratulate you, but is this all that matters?

Personally, I can amass everything I want, and I can be doing things that are fun, and enjoyable, and interesting, but the fact that collectively the society I live in is so full of people who are being denied access to this same privilege based on factors as silly as the color of their skin or the level of education their parents could afford, this bothers me and bars me from feeling "fulfilled" because I see myself as part of a greater whole.

What's missing now, I think, is the sense people once had that individual fulfillment is not always more important than being part of a greater whole.

This is obviously a general point but it's expressed over and over, in many different cultures, religions, and even different philosophies and theories. Welcome to the desert of the real.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
i think people are projecting their own desires in the context of their society onto another culture, with an entirely different context. what is important to you, you think must be important to everyone, everywhere.

it's like me saying: what? europeans don't get together to play mahjong for 3 days with no sleep? oh the poor miserable bastards!

sex as a recreational activity may not be all that important if you spend most of your time playing games, have zero stress, and live in a culture which does not focus so much on titillation ---- maybe there are a thousand other things more interesting in dobe life. maybe they do not need to have sex for stress relief. maybe one would not think about sex all the time without representations of it constantly shoved in his face.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
I think alienation and neurosis is more interesting than contentment and "authentic" experience.

how do you know you don't like chocolate icecream better than gummy bears if you've never tried chocolate icecream?

Have the Dobe ever produced a Dotskevsky or a Goya?

the Dobe LIVE Dostoevsky and EXPERIENCE Goya every minute of their existence. that is the point.

Marx always said that in a perfect society art would not exist: everything we do would be art.

this is not so different from the life of the Dobe, who do not distinguish work from play.

one can say that to a society like the Dobe, everything is a "ready-made", and everything is art.

indeed i am very much attracted to the idea that art and music and ritual and religion were invented to replace what we had lost with the rise of civilization.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
plus, misery and neurosis being pre-condition for "great art" is, if not entirely a crock of shit, an extremely myopic view.

for one thing plenty of "great art" in our society is made by non-neurotic, non-miserable people. and just because "great art" is made in our neurotic and miserable society under those conditions, you think "great art" can not be made (or experienced) in a different society?
 

zhao

there are no accidents
I tried being happy once, it was OK, I guess.

it's impossible for you to see the world outside of your own tiny experience of it? not to worry, most people can't.

Oh, so they do kill their babies then. (And eat them)

now you are just being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. i said they "experience Goya" meaning they experience the exulted states associated with "great art".
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Well, off the top of my head I would say it's a mixture of nature vs nurture I guess. But that's not the question I'm interested in (right now) which is, whether people then had any individual personality at all.

I might not have followed this conversation to the minutest detail, but everything about us has evolved over millions of years.

We've always had "traits", but it wouldn't have been adaptive at an earlier stage in human development to have a strong "personality", as in a set of identifiable characteristics that set you apart from others, that made you more demanding on others, or command more attention, etc, UNLESS (possibly) it made you a good leader. Early in human evolution, in hunter-gatherer societies, the social contract was essential to survival. Keeping with the tribe or group made you much more likely to survive--you'd be able to share resources, have more protection from the elements and from predators, or other warring tribes, etc.

This is how "culture" slowly evolved, as a set of signs that were unique to a tribe, that formed around their specific food preparation rituals, rites-of-passage, warrior initiation rites, celebrations, legends, etc.

What we have now, though, under late capitalism, is this somewhat strange idea that humans need to find fulfillment alone, that we're all lone wolves that should be competing to the death for every last bread crumb. There's no precedent for this way of life in human evolution. Industrialization is ruining the planet quite obviously. But people have convinced themselves that the only way to be "happy" is to be "free" to become who you "really are" by choosing between a bunch of different retail stores in a mall, and then stopping by the supermarket of ideologies on the way home and patching together a belief-system that justifies anything you want to believe. All the while irreversibly damaging our ecosystems in ways we probably can't even begin to understand yet.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
plus, misery and neurosis being pre-condition for "great art" is, if not entirely a crock of shit, an extremely myopic view.

for one thing plenty of "great art" in our society is made by non-neurotic, non-miserable people. and just because "great art" is made in our neurotic and miserable society under those conditions, you think "great art" can not be made (or experienced) in a different society?

I don't think Swears has ever said that misery and neurosis was a pre-condition for "great art", though you accuse someone of doing that here on the regular.

There aren't a whole lot of non-neurotic people anywhere. So the idea that you're going to have a lot of non-neurotic creative people is kind of like saying you're going to win the lottery.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
agree with the gist of what nomad said. but just one correction: for the vast majority of the history of humans on earth, the pre-tribal, band level society (like the dobe) is the principle form of social organization. which involves little to no ritual or warrior initiation rites.
 
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