Pretentious Crap

[vimothy]

Inborn, evolved to ensure our survival.

AFAIK, even the hardcore over at GNXP don't think that it's all nature. Surely, some of it must be socioculturally determined. I can't imagine that I'd be the same person if I'd lived 2 million years ago.

 

[zhao]

those that take issue with the figures i cited and societies they describe, please listen to the cultural anthropology lecture i linked to in that previous thread.

a large body of evidence exists for the absolute superiority of life in "primitive" societies any which way you look at it (and the more "primitive"/smaller/older you go, the better) , but, understandably, it is always met with total resistance.

(and please, i'm no talking about 18th century or the middle ages. but a bigger perspective of the evolution of human societies)

 

[mixed_biscuits]

AFAIK, even the hardcore over at GNXP don't think that it's all nature. Surely, some of it must be socioculturally determined. I can't imagine that I'd be the same person if I'd lived 2 million years ago.

What's GNXP? Who cares about GNXP - we've got the industrialised world's finest minds right here at Dissensus.

My mental model of personality basically has us motivated by very strong inborn desires (to eat, drink, breathe, have sex, buy cheap cds) that must be preeminent, merely to ensure that we don't perish. Other motivations I see as merely the base motivations in other guises, or subservient to them. Sure, culture can repress these desires to varying extents, but it's like trying to keep a queue of X-Factor auditionees in complete silence - sooner or later, they're going to express themselves.

 

[josef k.]

I am curious as how you would explain Marcel Duchamp's desire to ordain readymades in evolutionary terms as a survival mechanism.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

a large body of evidence exists for the absolute superiority of life in "primitive" societies any which way you look at it (and the more "primitive"/smaller/older you go, the better) , but, understandably, it is always met with total resistance.

Dammit, we need a field report from you, Zhao!

 

[zhao]

Incidentally, less than a sixth of the world's total population is classified as 'hungry'.

which ever study you go by, it does nothing in changing my fundamental belief that there is a FUCK of a lot of room for improvement in life and society of our times. and that an important, perhaps the most important thing to do in order to change for the better is studying the ways of our ancestors (which survive today).

(realize that i've said all of this before. and will happily say it again next time)

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I am curious as how you would explain Marcel Duchamp's desire to ordain readymades in evolutionary terms as a survival mechanism.

Without wishing to be too reductive, I would suggest that getting his leg over may have been a motivation.

Ask yourself: would a starving Duchamp, in mortal danger, have renounced his pisspot for a hot dinner?

 

[zhao]

LOL at the parallel conversations in this thread

 

[josef k.]

Hmm...

Do you not sometimes worry that certain complexities might escape this perspective?

 

[vimothy]

What's GNXP? Who cares about GNXP - we've got the industrialised world's finest minds right here at Dissensus.

I know you're a dog not a guinea pig, mixed_biscuits

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Do you not sometimes worry that certain complexities might escape this perspective?

Well, it's interesting to see how the fundamental motivations are expressed through the medium of culture/society. That in itself would be complex and fascinating.

 

[zhao]

LOL at the parallel conversations in this thread

and here is my attempt at connecting the two:

Marx always said that in a perfect society art would not exist: everything we do would be art.

this is not so different from the life of the Dobe, who do not distinguish work from play.

one can say that to a society like the Dobe, everything is a "ready-made", and everything is art.

indeed i am very much attracted to the idea that art and music and ritual and religion were invented to replace what we had lost with the rise of civilization.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I know you're a dog not a guinea pig, mixed_biscuits

*woof*

 

[josef k.]

Well, it's interesting to see how the fundamental motivations are expressed through the medium of culture/society. That in itself would be complex and fascinating.

But what if you wanted to know about what makes our society specific, and different to other societies. If you reduce everything to natural drives, it seems like you end up with the position: "Everything always the same." Which doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[vimothy]

which ever study you go by, it does nothing in changing my fundamental belief that there is a FUCK of a lot of room for improvement in life and society of our times. and that an important, perhaps the most important thing to do in order to change for the better is studying the ways of our ancestors (which survive today).

That may well be true.

6.6 billion is a big number though.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

But what if you wanted to know about what makes our society specific, and different to other societies. If you reduce everything to natural drives, it seems like you end up with the position: "Everything always the same." Which doesn't appear to be the case.

So how are we doing with eliminating hunger by eliminating hunger, then? We've still got the same basic issues that stone age man struggled with.

What if this seeming specificity were over-stated: plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose.

 

[josef k.]

The hunger question is a different one today then it was. There is now in the world enough food to go around - but there is a distribution problem.

And we also have a lot of new issues that stone age man never faced, no?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

The hunger question is a different one today then it was. There is now in the world enough food to go around - but there is a distribution problem.

No, I meant not eliminate hunger by providing food, but eliminating the need for food - hunger itself. The point being that none of our fundamental motivations have been dispensed with.

And we also have a lot of new issues that stone age man never faced, no?

Namely?

 

[vimothy]

I need a new charger for my phone.

 

[zhao]

We've still got the same basic issues that stone age man struggled with.

this is part of the misconceptions that are still common place despite huge bodies of evidence to the contrary: stone age man DID NOT struggle with these issues. they enjoyed PERFECT HEALTH and ZERO STARVATION and a very short "work" week and exponentially more leisure time compared to us.

(lots of different views on this obviously, but it makes sense to me that their life span was much greater than ours)