good looking people with stuff.

[zhao]

In my experience they are much better in bed than men are, even though if I had to choose I would probably say I'd prefer a guy based on looks if he's good looking enough.

few women under the age of 30 are comfortable enough with themselves to allow themselves to have amazing sex. from my experience.

so looks are more important to you than feeling? would that be an inverted "male gaze"? isn't obsession with surface and appearances quintessentially male and chauvinist? maybe not. i don't know what I'm talking about I'm drunk.

 

[nomadologist]

few women under the age of 30 are comfortable enough with themselves to allow themselves to have amazing sex. from my experience.

so looks are more important to you than feeling? would that be an inverted "male gaze"? isn't obsession with surface and appearances quintessentially male and chauvinist? maybe not. i don't know what I'm talking about I'm drunk.

comfortable enough with myself? ha. so it's *my* fault most men suck in bed. yeah, that's it.

i've had sex with a few people who were actually very good and i enjoyed it, so i know they exist. they're just the exception to the rule. i found one person and have been with them for a long long time because i know that i probably will never be lucky enough to find someone i like so much who is so talented.

sex is just so boring the way most people practice it imo.

yaaawwnnn.

everyone likes good-looking people, or at least people whom they personally find good looking. i don't think that has anything to do with the male gaze, which is a way in which our sexuality is unconsciously structured around the phallic according to psychoanalysts.

 

[zhao]

my definition of good sex:

heart.

feeling.

communication.

fluidity.

connectedness.

sensitivity.

"letting go" (of the self. and abandoning to the experience. to the moment)

like good improvised music. where each player is paying attention to the other(s), action and response - give and take - and simultaneously being creative of their own accord and intuition. magic happens.

my definition of bad sex:

disconnected.

no feeling.

joyless fucking.

self absorbed.

egotistical.

narcisistic.

simulated. (virtual)

incommunicado. (fear)

 

[nomadologist]

i am way kinkier than that i guess. or should i say that i know i am.

 

[zhao]

i am way kinkier than that i guess. or should i say that i know i am.

not sure exactly what you mean.

role playing? that i think can come after the initial connection. but if a relationship is based on subjective fantasy, it will never move beyond that stage of play-acting -- and in my opinion, ultimately unfulfilling.

fetish? fetish as a substitute is by definition a replacement, a standing in, of the real thing. it is borne of neurosis and insecurity and fear (much more safe to fixate on objects, or people as objects, than real living humans with real feelings)

ok that's it. good night. I'm going to bed. (alone)

 

[nomadologist]

not sure exactly what you mean.

role playing? that i think can come after the initial connection. but if a relationship is based on subjective fantasy, it will never move beyond that stage of play-acting -- and in my opinion, ultimately unfulfilling.

fetish? fetish as a substitute is by definition a replacement, a standing in, of the real thing. it is borne of neurosis and insecurity and fear (much more safe to fixate on objects, or people as objects, than real living humans with real feelings)

ok that's it. good night. I'm going to bed. (alone)

No not role playing. And not fetishes.

Well I'm going to take issue with the idea that fetish is "borne of neurosis insecurity and fear"--not at all, according to psychoanalysts, with whom I largely agree on the subject. We *all* have fetishes, whether they are recognized or not. Most people don't have especially deviant ones, but everyone has them. (Fetish doesn't "stand in" for anything but the lost object, which was never a "real thing" in the way I believe you mean "real thing" when you type it)

You could just as easily say that people who refuse to explore sexual fantasies outside the realm of vanilla sex are "afraid" and "repressed." But I won't, because I don't think it's necessarily true. There is a very wide range of perfectly acceptable and valid expressions of human sexuality. We all have a narrative, we all have needs, all of our needs come from concrete psychological experience, we are all entitled to fulfill those needs to the best of our ability without victimizing anyone.

I think anyone who thinks that they are only into sex insofar as it is about "real people with real feelings" and without recourse to their own very complicated set of psychological needs is kidding themselves.

 

[nomadologist]

The best quote about sex I can think of is one I heard from an ex who I haven't even thought about in years but one who was pretty kinky--

Sex is a psychological activity with physical payoffs.

I agree with that 100%. Most men, in my experience, think of sex as a physical activity with physical payoffs. That is one-dimensional and boring to me.

 

[ripley]

So what's to do about it? Women make up half of society, after all, it's not like it's this alien thing that's thrust upon them.

yes, if you ignore sexism and patriarchy.

this situation that puts womens' sense of self and worth wholly in their appealingness to men is not alien, because it's the system we all grow up in. But it is not to women's advantage. Women do maintain it (we are sexist towards each other because we learn it just like men do) but it doesn't benefit us in relation to men.

what's to do about it is to recognize that it exists, try not to do things that maintain or contribute to it. Like, avoid slut-shaming talk, avoid relying on sexist categories and generalizations, avoid discussing or referring to women as if their sole value is their ability to attract men, mock/shame sexism in others, standing up to sexism and subverting it in official situations whenever possible, etc etc

you know, the usual.

 

[zhao]

Sex is a psychological activity with physical payoffs.

that's interesting although how anyone can really separate the two is beyond me...
________________________________
know what else is interesting: was talking to one of my lovers about masterbation, and she says that she never thinks about men when she is pleasing herself. (i was a bit hurt actually) but she says that she has never fantasized about men during auto-erotic activities -- while it is unthinkable for me not to think about women in such circumstances.

i'm pretty certain most men are like me. are most women like her?

if so, the only conclusion is that male sexuality is almost entirely dependent on the female; while female sexuality is much more autonomous and independent.

to the boys: they really don't need us

to the girls: how's that for empowering!

 

[bassnation]

I wouldn't be caught dead "chasing" anyone. I have no interested in being a "sexually aggressive" empowered female, mostly because I don't believe the two have anything to do with one another. Aside from that, nothing sounds more boring than bothering to chase men. It's probably the last thing on my list of "activities worth doing"...

chasing a man is like a dog chasing a stationary car surely?

and who are all these men purely into vanilla sex? crazy, fucked-up, days-on-end, drugged to the eyeballs, complaints-from-the-neighbours sex is where its at for everyone surely?

 

[john eden]

rejection is not just of sex or a drink or whatever, but is kind of felt as a rejection of your value as a human being.

Without wishing to diminish the effects of our fucked up society on women, that is also how a lot of men experience rejection in my experience.

 

[swears]

Without wishing to diminish the effects of our fucked up society on women, that is also how a lot of men experience rejection in my experience.

Oh boy, do we ever.

But maybe the rejection hurts for different reasons. Women feel ugly, men feel like socially incompetent nerds/idiots (and ugly a bit as well).

 

[Mr. Tea]

isn't obsession with surface and appearances quintessentially male and chauvinist?

Dude: out of all the people you know, who (on average) owns the most shoes - the men or the women?

I'm not saying obsession-with-surface-and-appearances is quintessentially female either, I don't think it's quintessentially anything actually.

 

[john eden]

I think it goes deeper than that, you're basically revealing a fair bit about yourself and making yourself vulnerable in the process. Even when you're being let down gently, that cuts quite deep. For some.

I suppose a lot of depends on your sensitivity and personality, and what your intentions are (like, are you a dog on heat or have you fancied someone for ages and just plucked up the courage to ask them out after weeks of self-doubt?)

 

[Mr. Tea]

yes, if you ignore sexism and patriarchy.

I'm not trying to 'ignore' anything, I'm was just pointing out (as you recognise yourself) that the way things are now is a result of a complicated dynamic in which women play an active, as well as a passive, part. It's certainly not as if the "rules of the dating game" (or whatever bullshit clichéd term for it you want to use) work to the detriment of every woman and the advantage of every man, and I think there's a good case to be made for women in many respects having the upper hand, at least as far as finding partners is concerned.

 

[swears]

Will you be my giiiirll-frieeend?

 

[john eden]

It seems a bit petty to complain about in the face of the stats on domestic violence, wages, rape etc, but I do think it is worth thinking about situations where men do not benefit from patriarchy - not least because it's more reason to seek change.

There is a danger of course of men trying to claim victim status in the equation as well, which is ridiculous, but I don't think we can gloss over how society fucks men up either.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Well yeah, look at rates of depression, mental illness, academic failure, drug and alcohol addiction, suicide - sorry, ladies, but we leave you in the dust on those fronts. Of course, as John says, none of this should be mentioned instead of rape, wage inequality and so on, it should be mentioned as well. It's not like there's a fixed amount of human rights that has to be divvied up between the sexes, after all...

 

[swears]

I did actually reject a girl once without knowing it. She asked me to go to some slightly naff gothy electronica night and I said "no" thinking she was still with her fella and asking me out as a friend. After that she was really moody with me, little jibes, not speaking, etc... Mr Clueless here had to ask a mutual friend what was going on, by then it was too late to get together, doh!

 

[zhao]

Well I'm going to take issue with the idea that fetish is "borne of neurosis insecurity and fear"--not at all, according to psychoanalysts, with whom I largely agree on the subject. We *all* have fetishes, whether they are recognized or not. Most people don't have especially deviant ones, but everyone has them. (Fetish doesn't "stand in" for anything but the lost object, which was never a "real thing" in the way I believe you mean "real thing" when you type it)

yes we all have fetishes, and we all have neurosis, insecurities, and fears. from what i understand, correct me if I'm wrong, a fetish by definition is a sexual fixation on an inanimate object which is substitute for the human.

There is a very wide range of perfectly acceptable and valid expressions of human sexuality. We all have a narrative, we all have needs, all of our needs come from concrete psychological experience, we are all entitled to fulfill those needs to the best of our ability without victimizing anyone.

i would agree with that. with my previous list of "good sex" and "bad sex" characteristics I was not trying to delineate some kind of division between "healthy sex" and "unhealthy sex" or right and wrong. (but i know how it can seem like that)

I think anyone who thinks that they are only into sex insofar as it is about "real people with real feelings" and without recourse to their own very complicated set of psychological needs is kidding themselves.

you are right there as well. but that is the pendulum swung completely in the other direction of my postulation that "bad sex = impersonal joyless fucking with no empathy of the other as a human being". surely we should acknowledge both.