Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

P

polystyle

Well-known member
Israel's got something in mind here- besides being seen as 'out of control'.
Timing of this boarding & killing - and Netanyahu being able to use it as an excuse to not meet Prez Obama seems another odd bit of synchronizing after the settlements BS snafu last time.

And we see the US and Israel have been this close since forever, but beyond the cliche,
i don't see the exact same lockstep sentiment coming out of the White House this year.

Add : http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeast/02policy.html?hp
More : http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeast/02media.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Countries that act like they are untouchable get burned sooner or later ...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D

droid

Guest
I doubt bibi wouldve been let within 1000 miles of Obama tbh. Pics of them shaking hands as Turkish bodies drift in the Mediterranean wouldve been a total disaster.

The US has been deeply disappointing on this, though that's to be expected seeing as US policy towards Israel only ever shifts by microscopic amounts.
 
M

massrock

Well-known member
Re that blog post.

I don't think it's quite correct to suggest that a humanitarian aid mission is simply a gesture of civil (nautical?) disobedience, presumably in part the aid is an end in itself.

But also re Somali pirates taking vessels without such loss of life. I don't expect pirates manage this without the threat of extreme violence. And rationally or not I would guess that people on boats tend to fully expect pirates to carry out threats if not complied with. Not to mention that the subjects of piracy will most likely not consider the cargo in their charge to be worth their lives, it's probably insured anyway, although some have fought back I know.

That is to say that people may have reacted differently given the situation as it was understood*, crazy as that was.

* i.e. In international waters, with people and principles at stake, dealing with a professional force that must supposedly take political and PR considerations into account, despite track record, etc.
 
Last edited:
Dr Awesome

Dr Awesome

Techsteppin'
massrock said:
But also re Somali pirates taking vessels without such loss of life. I don't expect pirates manage this without the threat of extreme violence. And rationally or not I would guess that people on boats tend to fully expect pirates to carry out threats if not complied with. Not to mention that the subjects of piracy will most likely not consider the cargo in their charge to be worth their lives, it's probably insured anyway, although some have fought back I know.
Click to expand...

A big part of the ransom the pirates get are from the captured crew presumably, and they don't want to draw too much attention to themselves, so killing people isn't the name of the game.
Special ops guys on the other hand ARE trained to kill the fuck out of whatever gets in their way.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
padraig (u.s.) said:
yeah, Tristan Anderson, last March. shot in the face w/a tear gas canister in a West Bank village while taking pictures there several hours after a demo against the Wall...
Click to expand...

Fucking hell, that makes for sobering reading. :( Absolutely massive respect for people who put themselves in the line of fire for the sake of others like that.
 
M

massrock

Well-known member
Yes but I don't think pirates could achieve their aims without threatening to kill people. But what I mean is that the situations are quite different.

I would expect special ops guys to be trained to do what they are told to do and not fuck it up.
 
P

polystyle

Well-known member
Last edited by a moderator:
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
...so I won’t rehash what everyone’s already said except to make this very cynical point: high-visibility non-violent protests pack a disproportionately heavy punch in this age of 24 hour news, Twitter feeds, and live-streaming video.

Oops, Helena Cobban already said that. But no matter. The point is that this tragic incident is doing more to put the plight of ordinary Gazans back on the front page than any kind of military operation undertaken by Hamas. And speaking of Hamas, they’ve chosen the right moment to show their cuddly side. Khaled Meshaal recently told Charlie Rose (again) that his organization would end its resistance towards Israel if a two-state solution were adopted on the basis of the 1967 borders. Two days later, the IDF killed a bunch of humanitarian workers.

What’s the next step? Syria has called for an emergency meeting of the Arab League, and both Bashar al-Assad and Saad al-Hariri have warned that the flotilla killings could lead to a regional war. Maybe this is a naive reading, but it strikes me that beating the war drums is the wrong move. Instead of threatening to launch another intifada, why not actually launch an aid flotilla that is ten times the size of the one that was assaulted? The humanitarian non-violent strategy has clearly proved to be the winning one, so why not press it?
Click to expand...

http://qifanabki.com/2010/05/31/changing-tides/

Also good post on Turkey: http://qifanabki.com/2010/06/01/five-thoughts-on-turkey-and-the-flotilla-crisis/
 
Last edited:
D

droid

Guest
Yeah, thanks for that. Good to see you're finally linking to articles that agree with my wildly one dimensional views.

You'll be sipping fully from the cup of droid in no time. ;)
 
D

droid

Guest
lol.

I think the 'state of hostilities' angle also needs to be looked at more carefully in regard to IL.

AFAIK, Israel has been very careful not to make any 'official' declaration of war against Hamas/Gaza/Palestine for various reasons, and in line with their general policy of legal ambiguity, so the question there is whether or not Israel's actions against Hamas 'officially' constitute 'hostilities' as defined by IL, or if Israel's lack of a concrete 'declaration of hostilities' means that IL does not recognise the conflict along with the provisions and conditions that apply - which is exactly why Israel hasn't made such a declaration, as then these provisions would then apply to Hamas and Gaza.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
One of the points Heller (Opinio Juris post) makes is that this operation may constitute formal recognition of full belligerent status for Hamas with the implication that their fighters become priviledged combatants with POW status when captured.
 
B

Brother Randy Hickey

formerly Dubversion
for the record, my friend's sister who was on the second biggest passenger ship (who's being deported today, I believe) states absolutely categorically that the Israelis started firing before boarding.
 
D

droid

Guest
There's a lot of testimony coming out to support that and some video - including a Pakistani journalist who claims that the Israelis shot 3 people in the head right in front of him.
 
D

droid

Guest
In relation to the blockade - this is absolutely heartbreaking:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od#3076167

In December 2008, the Israeli Defence Force unleashed a campaign to destroy the ability of Hamas to launch rockets and mortars into Israel. Around 300 children were among the 1,300 Palestinians that were killed.

After the ceasefire, BAFTA-winning filmmaker Jezza Neumann arrived in Gaza to follow the lives of three children over a year.

Surrounded by the remnants of the demolished Gaza Strip and increasingly isolated by the blockade that prevents anyone from rebuilding their homes and their lives, Children of Gaza is a shocking, touching and uniquely intimate reflection on extraordinary courage in the face of great adversity.
Click to expand...
 
P

polystyle

Well-known member
I am mainly interested in seeing change, and it's almost always slow in coming ...
Some on the US side noted in this Kristol Op Ed http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/opinion/03kristof.html?ref=opinion

to clarify ...
" Peter Beinart wrote a powerful article in the most recent New York Review of Books exploring the way young Jews in America feel much less identification with Israel than their elders did. Mr. Beinart noted that even the student Senate at Brandeis University, which has strong Jewish ties, rejected a resolution commemorating the 60th anniversary of Israel.

One basic problem, Mr. Beinart said, is that the Zionist movement has become increasingly conservative politically. “For several decades,” he writes, “the Jewish establishment has asked American Jews to check their liberalism at Zionism’s door, and now, to their horror, they are finding that many young Jews have checked their Zionism instead.”

Israel’s hard-line policies are depleting America’s international political capital as well as its own. Gen. David Petraeus noted two months ago that the perception that the United States favors Israel breeds anti-Americanism and bolsters Al Qaeda. The chief of Mossad, Meir Dagan, was quoted in the Israeli press as making the point more succinctly: “Israel is gradually turning from an asset to the United States to a burden.”
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top