version

Well-known member
Butler's writing seems itself exclusionary. It's the kind of stuff the majority of people will have to go through specific higher education in order to understand.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
Butler's writing seems itself exclusionary. It's the kind of stuff the majority of people will have to go through specific higher education in order to understand.
If what Butler is saying could be said clearly, someone would have said it clearly by now. For my part, I try to make Butler and her influence more accessible to the masses. I'm a popularizer of philosophy, like Bryan Magee!
 

version

Well-known member
If what Butler is saying could be said clearly, someone would have said it clearly by now.

Someone probably has. I'm not convinced by that line of argument anyway. Some people say the same thing about D&G when you can get a bunch of what they're on about just from reading Miller, Burroughs, etc or even a guidebook.
 

mvuent

Void Dweller

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Once we can recognize that our perspectives are male ones, we can begin to imagine what the feminine perspective looks like and hopefully express our image of femininity in a concrete cultural artefact.

So how are you actually doing that? Really, that's the only thing that interests me nowadays.

I've been through a theoretical phase as well btw. My own blog – male femme – was an attempt to work through ideas and feelings related to straight male femininity. I still agree with most of what I've written there, though it seems almost quaint to me now, so obvious I wonder why I even bothered to write it down. But gender is a journey as much as anything. We have to start somewhere. I no longer identify as either male or straight.

But there were two words I purposely avoided using: "feminine" and "lesbian". The latter because it relates specifically to women's same-sex attraction; I regarded it as both appropriative and inappropriate for a man to claim that word. The former because it comes with all sorts of cultural baggage – in particular that feminine/masculine correlate with female/male – which I categorically reject.

The butch/femme paradigm worked much better for me, because it circumvents male/female altogether. (Implicitly so, because it comes from same-sex relationships where there is only one sex involved.) And also because it's about both gender and sexuality, which are very much intertwined, at least for me. This stuff is ultimately personal. There's only one thing on my blog that I believe to be universally applicable and it's this:

"You can't speak for anyone else on these matters. You can't tell people who they are, what they are, why they are. One, because it's rude. Two, because most of the time you'll be wrong. This is a common mistake. Having reached an understanding (usually hard won) of who we are as individuals, and being so convinced of its correctness for ourselves, we assume that it must be correct for everyone else. It isn't."

Or as Patrick Califia put it: “The best we can do is speak our own truth, make it safe for others to speak theirs, and respect our differences.”
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
So how are you actually doing that? Really, that's the only thing that interests me nowadays.

I've been through a theoretical phase as well btw. My own blog – male femme – was an attempt to work through ideas and feelings related to straight male femininity. I still agree with most of what I've written there, though it seems almost quaint to me now, so obvious I wonder why I even bothered to write it down. But gender is a journey as much as anything. We have to start somewhere. I no longer identify as either male or straight.

But there were two words I purposely avoided using: "feminine" and "lesbian". The latter because it relates specifically to women's same-sex attraction; I regarded it as both appropriative and inappropriate for a man to claim that word. The former because it comes with all sorts of cultural baggage – in particular that feminine/masculine correlate with female/male – which I categorically reject.

The butch/femme paradigm worked much better for me, because it circumvents male/female altogether. (Implicitly so, because it comes from same-sex relationships where there is only one sex involved.) And also because it's about both gender and sexuality, which are very much intertwined, at least for me. This stuff is ultimately personal. There's only one thing on my blog that I believe to be universally applicable and it's this:

"You can't speak for anyone else on these matters. You can't tell people who they are, what they are, why they are. One, because it's rude. Two, because most of the time you'll be wrong. This is a common mistake. Having reached an understanding (usually hard won) of who we are as individuals, and being so convinced of its correctness for ourselves, we assume that it must be correct for everyone else. It isn't."

Or as Patrick Califia put it: “The best we can do is speak our own truth, make it safe for others to speak theirs, and respect our differences.”

I try to represent the feminine perspective in my art and my philosophy. I can tell you about my art if you want, but in this thread I've mostly talked about my philosophy.

Sensitivity is the main feminine quality I promote. I understand sensitivity as an attunement to the Other, an emotional receptivity and availability. Too many men are emotionally unavailable because society codes emotionality as feminine. Men are afraid to be feminine. thus they fear their own emotions. Non-rational emotions are entities distinct from rational mental states, not irrational states opposed to reason or which we have reason not to accept, and emotions aren't pre-rational states less sophisticated than rational ones. Furthermore, reasons can support non-rational emotions. I still maintain that non-rational and rational states can coexist and both have their own virtues and vices. Reason goes wrong when it tries to block out non-rational emotions. But too many men try to be rational at the exclusion of all emotion. (Scientism exemplifies such toxic masculinity). We need both emotion and reason, both the feminine and the masculine, to fully represent both cultures. I call this acceptance of both genders cultural androgyny. I want to fight the common notion that proscribes traditionally feminine qualities and portray these traits as inferior. Men fear femininity, thus they refuse to build relationships and shut themselves off from other people and become isolated atoms alone in the universe. I try to leave the door open for men to act in ways different from those society expects of them, to allow men to be vulnerable and listen to others and make an earnest attempt to help other people.

I guess the easy way to represent the feminine perspective is to look at masculine behavior, and then do something different but good. There's a whole range of behaviors closed off to men and I want to show men its okay to do these things, to act feminine. The gender binary tell us that all and only men are masculine and the same for women. When a man acts feminine it subverts the gender binary. This is why I maintain my view is non-binaristic. I have a way to actively criticize and counteract the gender binary.

Binary systems are engrained in our culture. We can't escape binaries absent an alternative. If it seems old fashioned to consider, for example, theoretical reasoning as masculine and practical reasoning as feminine, then it seems that way because these (perhaps stereotypical) gendered qualities are woven into our history. But like I said, the most fundamental characterization of masculinity and femininity is that masculinity correlates to the self, and femininity to the Other. I make room for people to act different than the mainstream, I promote a culture of difference. I understand a feminine perspective different from my own, masculine one, in terms of femininity, not in my own terms, thus I maintain the irreducibility of the feminine. Thus I maintain my view is an non-reductionist one.

A big point I'm trying to make is that we can detach femininity and masculinity from the female and the male. I'm all for destabilizing the gender binary -- that's why I promote male femininity. But if there's a way to act neither feminine nor masculine, I still haven't seen it, and I lack the vocabulary to describe it. We need a positive alternative to the two genders, some kind of third term, and it's not clear to me that anyone knows what that third terms is. Gender-neutral behavior was brought up earlier, but no one could give an example damaging to the manosphere.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
I try to represent the feminine perspective in my art and my philosophy. I can tell you about my art if you want, but in this thread I've mostly talked about my philosophy.

I'm more interested in how you enact your philosophy in your own life. How are you actually being, or trying to be, more feminine?

But failing that, yes, tell us about your art.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
I'm more interested in how you enact your philosophy in your own life. How are you actually being, or trying to be, more feminine?

But failing that, yes, tell us about your art.

I mean I do think that emotional availability and a general attitude of sensitivity toward the experiences of others count as practical applications of my philosophy. I get that my descriptions seem abstract, but I am trying to discuss concrete practices. In my life, many men have taken a callous, insensitive stance toward their emotions. How many people here will say their experience for the most part differed from mine? Too many men sever their feelings from their persons. Look at how the manosphere appeals to hyper-rational rhetoric. Everything is a tactic, a ploy, a means to the end of getting what you want. But I interrogate male desire. I ask, are the things men want worth wanting? That is why I claim women symbolically align with non-instrumental, Kantian ethical rationality. Because we need unconditional reasons to want what we want or else we just want them arbitrarily. Independent of any goal, I feel for others. I exhibit a willingness to engage the feelings of others, I offer empathy and sympathy, pathos. My emotional openness and availability count as pragmatic examples of my femininity.

One way we can be more feminine is by having more constructive discussions and less arguments. I see a lot of toxic masculinity in the tendency to debate everything, to always have to go against any view presented other than one's own. Arguments are just fine but we don't always have to disagree.

Finally, I embrace a romantic attitude that promotes unconditional love, love that respects the Other as an end in herself, and which loves her for the sake of loving her and no other goal. There's never been any strong romantic current in internet culture. I like to write romantic poetry.
 

ghost

Well-known member
I meant Joss Whedon in his creative output is a male lesbian. His abusive tendencies have nothing to do with his male lesbianism. It's hard to deny Buffy is a mix of feminine and masculine culture, since it interweaves masculine action and feminine, soap-opera-like melodrama.
I can't believe you lot let this one slide. You're getting lazy, you know? I'm still not convinced this thread isn't you all getting pissy with a large language model. There's no trace of humor in it all, hard to believe it's kept you occupied so long.

Anyway, Whedon's abusive tendencies are obviously exactly and precisely linked to his "male lesbianism." He's got one of the least healthy ideas about how to interact with women in the world, and you think that doesn't manifest in the art?

The political project comes from a place of fear of rejection—Whedon is petrified of his symbolic castration, of the scorn of women. Not only is the "feminine symbolism" clearly load-bearing when it comes to hiding his behavior towards women, but it's also rooted in the same situation—he fears women's rage, and so he simultaneously seeks to ingratiate himself publicly while dealing with potential threats (ie, women) by exerting the maximum of his personal power.

That's the sad thing about Buffy, you know—it's nine seasons of soft porn of a woman being stuck in a job in which someone else has power over her, and that's a lot of why it appealed so extensively to the lesbian-academic industrial complex—there's something of being an academic with tenure and a partner who you can't marry because it's illegal that mirrors that, that finds refuge in a bondage fantasy.
 

ghost

Well-known member
I mean I do think that emotional availability and a general attitude of sensitivity toward the experiences of others count as practical applications of my philosophy. I get that my descriptions seem abstract, but I am trying to discuss concrete practices. In my life, many men have taken a callous, insensitive stance toward their emotions. How many people here will say their experience for the most part differed from mine? Too many men sever their feelings from their persons. Look at how the manosphere appeals to hyper-rational rhetoric. Everything is a tactic, a ploy, a means to the end of getting what you want. But I interrogate male desire. I ask, are the things men want worth wanting? That is why I claim women symbolically align with non-instrumental, Kantian ethical rationality. Because we need unconditional reasons to want what we want or else we just want them arbitrarily. Independent of any goal, I feel for others. I exhibit a willingness to engage the feelings of others, I offer empathy and sympathy, pathos. My emotional openness and availability count as pragmatic examples of my femininity.

One way we can be more feminine is by having more constructive discussions and less arguments. I see a lot of toxic masculinity in the tendency to debate everything, to always have to go against any view presented other than one's own. Arguments are just fine but we don't always have to disagree.

Finally, I embrace a romantic attitude that promotes unconditional love, love that respects the Other as an end in herself, and which loves her for the sake of loving her and no other goal. There's never been any strong romantic current in internet culture. I like to write romantic poetry.
For the "male lesbian," as the incel, love exists as a utopia. The two ideologies are in fact almost identical—however, where the incel chooses outward-directed rage and hatred, the "male lesbian" chooses an internalization of hatred. It is merely a pre-fall version of the same thesis.

Here's a litmus test—do you, Mr. Male Lesbian, feel happy? Do you wake up every day feeling satisfied with your life? Does it balance you, make you feel level in the world? If you don't, it's a bad ideology, and it's going to warp you. It's a machine you're choosing to crush yourself in until you hate yourself and the world, and can announce your final arrival, the doors chiming at Incel Station.

Judging by that you've spent the last several months slowly trying to elaborate your grand theory to a bunch of breakbeat listening alcoholic types I'm ready to think the answer is no.
 
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malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
Funny you should say you find my theory humorless because I am actually developing the male lesbian into a comedy character. I can get goofier if that's what you all want. My book has plenty of humor in it, that was part of the point, to mix academic philosophy and humorous poetic entertainment.

You have to admit, this bit about Whedon's work failing as an example of feminist fiction is some revisionist history. Back in the 90s, when Buffy was the only show of its kind, nerds looked to him for feminism. Hence why Buffyology got so big. I was around for that cultural moment, so when I called Whedon a male lesbian I wanted to point to that cultural memory. I have never heard of Buffy not being a feminist work. To be honest, I'm not too attached to Whedon as an example of a male lesbian. I've still never seen all of Buffy. And I haven't seen his marvel movies at all. My point was that lots of feminist women love Buffy yet it still works as a show men can enjoy. Who is your male feminist alternative to Whedon? I prefer Chris Claremont. What's more feminist than his Dark Phoenix Saga, which makes a woman's emotions the most powerful force in the universe?

I don't see why you think I internalize hatred. Idealistic as it is, the male lesbian theory is one of endless free love. I have some pretty dark views about society, but my views about the male lesbian are my take on the bright side of life. If unconditional romance and reciprocal emotional receptivity aren't antidotes to incel ideology, what is? If praising femininity, and trying to empower and embody the feminine elements in our culture still amounts to misogyny, what in the world does loving women look like?

Male lesbianism is an anti-nihilistic ideology. Although I am a deeply depressed person, male lesbianism is one of the few things in life that makes me happy, along with Bob Dylan, the Second City, the Harvard Lampoon, and Warren Spector. Male lesbianism passes that litmus test for me. Without male lesbianism, I have nothing. Male lesbianism involves non-rational spirituality that tell us that life is worth living no matter what even if only because it gives us a chance to express love. Even the loneliest outsiders still essentially stand in a possible relation to a community. The community is always already there, even for loners outside it. I'm giving incels something to believe in, namely, the potential to build communities around universal love and gender non-conformity. So much of the manosphere is telling men they're not masculine enough and I'm telling them they are more than masculine enough. I'm just trying to tell men it's okay to be feminine, while the manosphere is telling them it's bad to be the way they are. If you can't see the different between male lesbianism and incel ideology, all I can say is please explain.

Finally, the reason I am posting my theory here is because this is the only place I know where people will listen and respond. Do you know a better site to post about this on?
Also, I love breakbeats. I'm writing a musical based around breakbeats.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I can't believe you lot let this one slide. You're getting lazy, you know? I'm still not convinced this thread isn't you all getting pissy with a large language model. There's no trace of humor in it all, hard to believe it's kept you occupied so long.

Anyway, Whedon's abusive tendencies are obviously exactly and precisely linked to his "male lesbianism." He's got one of the least healthy ideas about how to interact with women in the world, and you think that doesn't manifest in the art?

The political project comes from a place of fear of rejection—Whedon is petrified of his symbolic castration, of the scorn of women. Not only is the "feminine symbolism" clearly load-bearing when it comes to hiding his behavior towards women, but it's also rooted in the same situation—he fears women's rage, and so he simultaneously seeks to ingratiate himself publicly while dealing with potential threats (ie, women) by exerting the maximum of his personal power.

That's the sad thing about Buffy, you know—it's nine seasons of soft porn of a woman being stuck in a job in which someone else has power over her, and that's a lot of why it appealed so extensively to the lesbian-academic industrial complex—there's something of being an academic with tenure and a partner who you can't marry because it's illegal that mirrors that, that finds refuge in a bondage fantasy.
+1 for "lesbian-academic industrial complex"
 

ghost

Well-known member
I have never heard of Buffy not being a feminist work.
> In February 2021, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angelactress Charisma Carpenter alleged that Whedon had "abused his power on numerous occasions", calling him a "vampire" and "casually cruel". In a tweeted statement, Carpenter said that Whedon had called her "fat" and asked her "if [she] was going to keep it" upon learning of her pregnancy, mocked her religious faith, and repeatedly threatened to fire her, which he ultimately did.
Buffy co-stars Amber Benson and Michelle Trachtenberg corroborated Carpenter's allegations. On social media, Benson wrote: "Buffy was a toxic environment and it starts at the top. [Carpenter] is speaking truth". Trachtenberg wrote that "we know what he did" and alleged that his behavior toward her when she was a teenager was "Very. Not. Appropriate." Trachtenberg later stated on social media that there was a rule on set preventing Whedon from being in a room alone with her. Buffy star Sarah Michelle Gellar also lent her support and distanced herself from Whedon.
I don't see how a work of art can be considered feminist when this is what goes into it. And I don't think it's reasonable to pretend that none of that makes it into the final product. The trademark quality of Buffy is the performances that Whedon elicits—given that it's supernatural fantasy-horror, there's an undertone of fear and discomfort. I think that looks different—indeed, it's a different show—when you realize it's probably a response to the director as much as anything else.

Who is your male feminist alternative to Whedon?
I actually think that generally, men aren't very good at making art specifically about the experiences of women. I don't think it's the best thing to encourage. Maybe Elena Ferrante, but there are rumors there was a co-writer. Definitely it's no good to seek plaudits for one's mere decency.

I would suggest that men would do better to support women's movements, and to speak favorably about the work women do that they appreciate, than try to get in on the game themselves. Maybe if they feel ineffectual or feckless they can write about that on its own grounds—it works for Ben Lerner—rather than impugning women with their stance.

If unconditional romance and reciprocal emotional receptivity aren't antidotes to incel ideology, what is? If praising femininity, and trying to empower and embody the feminine elements in our culture still amounts to misogyny, what in the world does loving women look like?
Please consider being normal, being friends with women, and having a nice time chatting instead. Maybe buy them a cute souvenier you see on vacation. Make dinner with one of them and listen to some tunes. Tell a woman a funny story.

I don't see why you think I internalize hatred. Idealistic as it is, the male lesbian theory is one of endless free love. I have some pretty dark views about society, but my views about the male lesbian are my take on the bright side of life.
Although I am a deeply depressed person, male lesbianism is one of the few things in life that makes me happy, along with Bob Dylan, the Second City, the Harvard Lampoon, and Warren Spector. Male lesbianism passes that litmus test for me. Without male lesbianism, I have nothing.
This is what I meant when I was talking about "male lesbianism" as "load-bearing." A viewpoint that acts as a bulwark can't be distinguished from the views that make it necessary; there is a hidden shadow half of your ideology. If you want to feel free, you need to explore that other half.

I'm not saying there's something wrong with being effeminate. I'm somewhat of a dandy myself. But the question is whether this is leading you in a good direction, and it reads as if you're being crushed under the weight of the ideas you're running from. No good if you ask me. A good ideology keeps you feeling comfortable and well moisturized. Are you into fashion at all? I think there's a question of your relation to the body that I'd be interested to hear more about.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
I definitely think there's a difference between having a healthy relationship with women and fighting the manosphere. Your post had nothing to do with fighting the toxic masculinity overflowing through our culture.

Who said anything about men writing about the experiences of woman? I was talking about men representing femininity in works of feminist fiction. The question is whether men have anything to contribute to feminism. If all the work of feminism is to be done by women, then men have nothing to add. I think that's false, thus I encourage men to follow in the footsteps of Neil Gaiman, and Chris Claremont and make feminist art from a male perspective.

As for a "shadow half" of my ideology, I'd prefer you didn't play armchair psychoanalyst. I do want to address social isolation in my philosophy of the male lesbian, but that's a sociological issue and I don't know where to begin. But if you're interested in my theory of social isolation, I can tell you about it.

Maybe a good ideology keeps you comfortable, but good social criticism keeps you uncomfortable. I'm interested in the latter.
 

ghost

Well-known member
having a healthy relationship with women and fighting the manosphere. Your post had nothing to do with fighting the toxic masculinity overflowing through our culture.
Toxic masculinity is an unhealthy relationship to women. The question of how to find something better is very much the question of how to find a healthy relationship to women.

Who said anything about men writing about the experiences of woman? I was talking about men representing femininity in works of feminist fiction.
Who do you think Buffy is about?
 
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