mixed_biscuits

_________________________
As could the Israeli government. Demolish all illegal settlements, release all prisoners, withdraw to pre-1967 borders. Easy peasy.
Hamas and their Palestinian buddies are getting pounded whereas Israel less so. Hamas is like Pee Wee Herman standing on Deontay Wilder's tootsies until Wilder gets annoyed and starts smashing him in the face over and over again. It's in Pee Wee Herman's interests to stop standing on his tootsies at this point in time, don't you think?
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Hamas and their Palestinian buddies are getting pounded whereas Israel less so. Hamas is like Pee Wee Herman standing on Deontay Wilder's tootsies until Wilder gets annoyed and starts smashing him in the face over and over again. It's in Pee Wee Herman's interests to stop standing on his tootsies at this point in time, don't you think?
Funny, the Center for Strategic and International Studies used the same exact analogy in their keynote this morning.
 

vimothy

yurp
Hamas and their Palestinian buddies are getting pounded whereas Israel less so. Hamas is like Pee Wee Herman standing on Deontay Wilder's tootsies until Wilder gets annoyed and starts smashing him in the face over and over again. It's in Pee Wee Herman's interests to stop standing on his tootsies at this point in time, don't you think?
unfortunately it's not hamas who's getting smashed repeatedly in the face
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
unfortunately it's not hamas who's getting smashed repeatedly in the face
I know. Pee Wee has even more reason to stop standing on those toes.

Given that, were Hamas to throw in the towel, Israel would not go on to massacre the innocents, or even make qualitatively different territorial claims, I fail to see what they are defending. Since they are not defending, then they must be attacking but they have no prospect of success in that regard. Their co-citizens' deaths are collateral damage from their continuing to act offensively...the collateral damage is first and foremost Hamas' not Israel's.
 

vimothy

yurp
i dont understand your logic. hamas doesnt care about civilian casualties and israel doesnt either. both sides are morally responsible - israel cant push all of this on hamas
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
i dont understand your logic. hamas doesnt care about civilian casualties and israel doesnt either. both sides are morally responsible - israel cant push all of this on hamas
Why shouldn't Hamas care about civilian casualties? Presumably they are closely connected to many of them familially or in other ways. They probably believe that were they to stop resisting Israel would kill everyone, and so think they are playing a crucial defensive role in the way that the Ukrainians more correctly believe they are. In actual fact, whereas an Israeli surrender would lead to a massacre, a Hamas surrender would just mean a ceasefire.
 

vimothy

yurp
but evidently they dont, so the whole logic fails. if Israel could kill their way out of this problem they wouldnt be in it. but they are.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
but evidently they dont, so the whole logic fails. if Israel could kill their way out of this problem they wouldnt be in it. but they are.
The way you put it, Hamas are as inimical to the Palestinians as Israel is, so the sooner Israel dispatch them the better for everyone.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
lsrael is, in a sense, stuck in a quagmire, it cannot--probably evident since 73, certainly evident today--acheive a decisive military victory over its foes, but it also cannot conceive of an alternative strategy which all sides--including the Palestinians--can live with, so it is doomed to repeat the same inadequate moves from its playbook, to continued stalemate at best.
They're absolutely stuck in a quagmire, largely of their own making. It's not that they can't achieve decisive military victory, it's that military victory doesn't solve the issue of Palestinian disenfranchisement as it did with the Arab states. it's basic Clausewitz stuff - a military victory is useful in so far as it furthers or achieves a political goal. Look at how many people, including Israelis, have been asking what Israel's endgame in this invasion is beyond destruction. it's a problem that doesn't have a military solution. they cannot, as you say, simply kill their way out of it.

The Israeli RW has a fantasy of expelling the Palestinians and annexing the territories - normally just the WB bc no one actually wants Gaza, but the war has definitely added Gaza in a "we're there, might as well" way - but it's just that, a fantasy. even the U.S. won't stand by for that. the one line Blinken and Biden have consistently held is pushing back on any reoccupation of Gaza, let alone new settlements. So they can't ethnically cleanse their way out of it either. all the extremist settler bullshit is an attempt to do so bit by bit.

To step back a bit historically, force vs rapprochement is a debate within Zionism that predates the founding of Israel. The middle ground was traditionally pragmatic realism based on how Israeli leadership viewed the situation at a given time. I.e. in the triumphal post-67 conceptzia glow they were unwilling to trade land for peace with the Arab states. After 73, they were.

The occupations - more broadly Israel's relationship with Palestinian liberation, but specifically the occupations - begin a departure from any kind of pragmatism. Even leaving aside their poisonous effect Israeli society, which can't be overstated, they haven't made Israelis safer. The settlements, brutality and general illegality of the occupations are a huge embarrassment to, and a geopolitical strategic headache for, the U.S. and most importantly, the occupations have only strengthened the Palestinian desire for liberation.

I've said, you said it, a thousand people have said it elsewhere: Oct 7 ended the fantasy of endless occupation at acceptable cost. It was a specific illusion of Netanyahu and his allies, tho it must be said, accepted almost without criticism by the opposition as well as the large majority of Israeli society. the only solution is a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, probably with some land swaps, and some kind of transition under an international peacekeeping force. that's always been the only real solution. everything else will just be doubling down on the quagmire.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
it's actually wild to me the degree to which modern Israel has become insulated from and unrealistic about Palestinian goals

and I think that decline in pragmatism must relate in some proportion to the degree of insulation

historically Zionists had no choice but to be pragmatic about their relationships with Arabs. they lived literally side-by-side with them.

but now they've so thoroughly insulated themselves, even in the territories, that they've lost touch, as well as become complacent

the previously unthinkable intelligence failure leading up to Oct 7 begins to make more sense
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the claim that Israel is pursuing a genocidal strategy hinges on whether these hospital attacks are directed at hidden Hamasians or at innocent medics and patients
I again, encourage everyone to just stop engaging with the bad faith of this person

but for any lurkers who read this, it's a teachable moment

the genocide claims do not hinge in any way on hospital attacks. attacking hospitals is certainly inhumane, and the IDF has so far failed spectacularly - like where are the WMDs in 2003 level of failure - to provide evidence justifying its attacks on hospitals, but they are not genocidal of themselves.

the genocide claims hinge on dehumanization, collective punishment, and intent. Israeli politicians have put forth a tidal wave of public dehumanization (children of light vs children of darkness, vermin, etc) of Palestinians. the total siege of Gaza is collective punishment against an entire population. so those two are quite clearly true. intent is not quite as clear. there are genocidal elements in Israeli society, those elements are a part of the current Israeli govt, and there's a push, and not just from Ben-Gvir and Smotrich et al, to turn this war into an ethnic cleansing of Gaza and as much as they can get away with in the WB. I'm not sure to what degree that push will succeed and I suspect it's more of an improvised than a planned development - the Israelis don't really seem to have a plan in the political sense, and Netanyahu specifically is only concerned with his own survival - but it's a direct consquence of letting those racist elements run free in your governing coalition. either way, nothing to do with whether or not hospitals are Hamas "command nodes".
 

vimothy

yurp
it really is basic clausewitz stuff-- war as "politics by other means", the problem, for israel, is that there is no political solution to which it can push the dial absent the one thing it regards as unthinkable: some form of sovereignty for the Palestinians
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
An Israeli take on the futility of endless occupation, hitting most of the same points. it's short and worth reading.

from, notably, the main right-wing Israeli English-language newspaper, rather than Haaretz

If we refrain from coming to grips with the futility of the strategy of maintaining the occupation, we will find that the lessons learned will be limited to how the old “concept” was mismanaged, and not the efficacy of abandoning it. And so, the lessons of the disaster will only translate into tactical measures where the deepening of Israel’s rule in the territories will be one of the most prominent of them. The occupation will become more brutal, and it will be conducted according to the same basic premise that led us to October 7 – that Israel can continue its occupation of another people endlessly.

As long as maintaining the occupation guides Israel’s actions, we can expect to meet increasingly violent Palestinian resistance, not to mention the risk of sliding into a binational reality that would diminish Israel’s Jewish character. Sometimes we will succeed in subduing the attacks and sometimes, unfortunately, we will fail. As severe as the damage we inflict on Hamas may be, it will not eliminate the infrastructure that enabled the growth of the murderous organization.

We find ourselves forced to “mow the lawn” repeatedly, knowing full well that the grass will continue to grow. The lawn may change names with each of Hamas’s successors. But make no mistake, the bloody cycle will repeat itself as long as we are guided by the “concept” that the occupation can be maintained, and its disastrous ramifications contained.
 

droid

Well-known member
the genocide claims hinge on dehumanization, collective punishment, and intent. Israeli politicians have put forth a tidal wave of public dehumanization (children of light vs children of darkness, vermin, etc) of Palestinians. the total siege of Gaza is collective punishment against an entire population. so those two are quite clearly true. intent is not quite as clear. there are genocidal elements in Israeli society, those elements are a part of the current Israeli govt, and there's a push, and not just from Ben-Gvir and Smotrich et al, to turn this war into an ethnic cleansing of Gaza and as much as they can get away with in the WB. I'm not sure to what degree that push will succeed and I suspect it's more of an improvised than a planned development - the Israelis don't really seem to have a plan in the political sense, and Netanyahu specifically is only concerned with his own survival - but it's a direct consquence of letting those racist elements run free in your governing coalition. either way, nothing to do with whether or not hospitals are Hamas "command nodes".


It's the combination of intent and action. The level of violence against civilians thats being meted out in Gaza, massacre after massacre, tens of thousands dead - combined with the clearly genocidal commentary from senior figures that qualifies this. I don't think I ever used the term to describe Israel's policies before now, but this seems unambiguous.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the problem, for israel, is that there is no political solution to which it can push the dial absent the one thing it regards as unthinkable: some form of sovereignty for the Palestinians.
that's not true. Palestinian sovereignty is unthinkable for the Israeli RW, not for Israel as a whole.

that's exactly why current Israeli govt is so dangerous. It's why Netanyahu spent the last 15 years strengthening Hamas in order to weaken the PA.

unfortunately Oct 7 has strengthened those elements in Israeli society even it has discredited Netanyahu personally

and that's bad news for renewing a peace process
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
It's the combination of intent and action
whether or not to use "genocide" is to an extent I think heavily loaded semantics bc of all it entails

but my feeling is that the longer this goes on, the more people die from the conditions imposed by the siege and disruption of food, water, electricity, communications, medical care, etc the more genocidal it becomes. I certainly don't think the Israeli level of military response is justified but I personally wouldn't call it genocidal, "only" extremely callous and inhumane, as it still has some nominal military objective. the siege is what tips it over for me.

tho again, I think getting hung up on the word itself is less important than acknowledging the clear intent of Israeli leadership to impose massive and dehumanizing collective punishment on a scale which dwarfs all collective punishment reprisals past.
 

vimothy

yurp
for the current configuration of Israeli politics then. where do you see this ending up, in terms of outcomes that are immediately achievable? to me it seems that israel has two options, both of which are failure modes: occupy gaza, or abandon it to hamas (or whoever replaces them)
 
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