Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

yyaldrin

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
it's also winding up people especially in said countries because of those countries unequivocal support for israel and the genocide it's commiting, as opposed to for example the war in ukraine.
 
version

version

Well-known member
shakahislop said:
i don't think it's even that version. it's like personal dramas and drives being sublimated into the cause. the cause as a funnel for everything else. i don't get the feeling that that people in israel or gaza are the central subject of this kind of libidinal energy. i like the free palestine guys and they're on the right side. and also can actually be bothered to do something. find it hard to relate at all to the (pretty huge number of) pro-israel people. but still. i think a lot of the time there's a lot more at play than beliefs or justice.
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What do you think of the idea of Lasch (and others) that some people get into 'radical' politics as a form of self-actualisation and that it's a selfish, therapeutic thing for them? That, or it's a palatable way of running from their own issues.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
shakahislop said:
i guess the obvious thing to say is that both things are going on at the same time
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What's particularly awful about both conflicts is that when each of them started, they looked like a crisis that would fairly quickly be resolved one way or the other, but which soon became an 'ongoing situation' with no end in sight.
 
shakahislop

shakahislop

Well-known member
Mr. Tea said:
What's particularly awful about both conflicts is that when each of them started, they looked like a crisis that would fairly quickly be resolved one way or the other, but which soon became an 'ongoing situation' with no end in sight.
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that's what everyone used to say about the conflict between me and version. but now look at it. an ongoing situation.
 
shakahislop

shakahislop

Well-known member
version said:
What do you think of the idea of Lasch (and others) that some people get into 'radical' politics as a form of self-actualisation and that it's a selfish, therapeutic thing for them? That, or it's a palatable way of running from their own issues.
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It probably varies a lot from person to person. I think it's self-evident though that for some people it's fulfilling some kind of personal need. As usual one of the things that you need to do to make sense of the world is to untangle it all. I think it's OK if the drives are selfish and what you're doing is working and its the right cause. I'm more interested in left-land because I'm more immersed in it, I don't know much about the right equivalent, I'm the wrong demographic, but I see a lot of little interpersonal punches and kicks can get covered up by appeals to one just cause or another. You see it in personal interactions all the time. The example that comes to mind for me is the ongoing dj voices vs nowadays dispute, where she seems to be mixing the crimes in gaza with her own employment etc disputes with the owners of the club. I don't know what went down obviously but from the outside it feels like some kind of psychodrama being played out that is only very very distantly related to the cause she's appealing to.

Maybe I'm out of touch but it feels like it's more profound in the US than elsewhere, the way that people grab hold of the issues of the day as a kind of prism for thier own thoughts. My girlfriend was talking to a guy who was standing guard outside a yeshiva downtown in the days after the hamas attacks, who was apparently absolutely convinced that more attacks were coming in new york. It's alright to be scared and to react to scenes of horror. But the level of delusion can be hard to accept. Across America it looks to me like there's a kind of slippage of language where the words become unmoored from the direct reality. It's more than just exaggeration I think. It's like people are lost in a web of language-based fantasies. The rapid creation of new and proliferating subjectivities. Maybe it's more pronounced with Gaza because almost no one in the US has direct experience to compare it to, it feels especially untethered, like more than anything people are engaged in a sort of game they're playing with language.
 
version

version

Well-known member
Wonder how this will go down, or whether he'll go through with it at all -

Keir Starmer is planning to use the Labour manifesto to make his strongest commitment yet on Palestinian statehood in a move to shore up the party’s core support on the left... People with knowledge of the document say the Labour leader is expected to include a pledge to recognise Palestine before the end of any peace process, and to make sure such a move does not get vetoed by a neighbouring country
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
version said:
Wonder how this will go down, or whether he'll go through with it at all -
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Would certainly be a step forward, although stopping UK firms from selling weapons to Israel would probably send a stronger signal.

Even Thatcher did that when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, I think.
 
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