The (lack of the) Mysterious

[nomadthethird]

especially since i just made them an mp3 CD full of great classic Latin music.

lol

I'm sure you mean well, Zhao, but the Mexican dudes probably know more about classic Latin music than you ever will.

Not that you mean to do it always, but I don't think you realize how some people might misinterpret your enthusiasm for their culture as condescension..."cultural tourism"...

 

[zhao]

lol

I'm sure you mean well, Zhao, but the Mexican dudes probably know more about classic Latin music than you ever will.

Not that you mean to do it always, but I don't think you realize how some people might misinterpret your enthusiasm for their culture as condescension..."cultural tourism"...

they asked me to make it for them.

first time in there i remarked "oh Calle 13" when it came on their system, and they were like "you know calle 13?" i told them that i djed and we started talking about music... Jose Luis, old Mexican drinking songs... rumba salsa reggaeton... and that was when they asked me to give them some more Latin stuff because they were running out of things to play in the shop.

i like your positivity nomad. always assuming the best and looking for opportunities to be nice. your warmth and charm is inspiring.

 

[Mr. Tea]

lol

I'm sure you mean well, Zhao, but the Mexican dudes probably know more about classic Latin music than you ever will.

Well not necessarily - I mean it's hardly as if the average English person has an encyclopaedic knowledge of Purcell, Elgar and Vaughn Williams. They were probably just pleased to meet someone with an interest in music from their culture.

But yeah, the wider point about "cultural tourism" still stands - the idea of treating the world's cultures as a sort of candy pick'n'mix from which you can effortlessly sample* this or that tasty treat (more effortlessly today than ever, of course) as it pleases you is problematic, though not really in a way I can concretely put my finger on. Ultimately it's better than people having no interest in anything that goes on outside their own little bubble, I suppose.


*ha, unintened pun there!

 

[zhao]

you know, nomad, you have on many occasions expressed disdain for my musical project. you have time and again used "cultural tourism", "exoticization", "orientalism", and even "racism" to describe my involvement in music from around the world.

you are of course welcome to think what you like, but i would like to tell you that many times i have met people who come from the place that produced the music i was playing, and every single time, with out exception, they have been over joyed to hear their beloved songs so far away from home.

when i opened up for Namibian Kwaito singer Gazza, among the people who came up to the dj booth were Kenyans, Tanzanians, Ghanaians, people from Mozambique... all beside themselves with delight at hearing music from their home land, and said that they wished they could hear it more often in Germany. one Kenyan man told me the last time he heard this particular song it was over 15 years ago... with this... look in his eyes.

likewise i have met people from Turkhia this way. from Egypt. from Venezuela. Cuba. my trumpet player is from Cuba, and he originally got in contact with me, because he was into what i do.

in short, you are the ONLY person that has EVER seen my musical project the way you see it.

not saying that it's not a valid way to look at it. just saying.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I appreciate that science brings us closer to unveiling the nature of systems that, comparatively speaking, are more true, but I disagree with the assumption that the 'fit' between these and human nature is necessarily better than that between our nature and those systems that we create ourselves.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

"cultural tourism", "exoticization", "orientalism" "racism"

I don't know about Nomad but I'm not referring to your music, at least not specifically. I mean, it's a little off-putting how much like to pat your own back for playing records from Africa (or wherever) but, whatever, DJ's are crazily egotistical almost by definition, so. (man, seriously tho, I can't believe you namechecked Kode9 as some kind of cred thing - no offense but that was hella corny)

I'm talking about qualities you attribute to various concepts like "indigenous" or "traditional" and, by extension, the people who stand in for them. it's all encapsulated in that insane statement you made to Tea about going to Indonesia or somewhere, & soaking up knowledge or some kind of vibe from the locals. as if they're just standing around waiting for you to show up so they can impart their spiritual wisdom to you. before you get hella defensive like always & start exclaiming that that's not what you mean at all, step back for a minute & think about it. or you could just keep repeating that "haters can't keep me down cos I KNOW I'm spreading the light" mantra. whatever, I guess.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I appreciate that science brings us closer to unveiling the nature of systems that, comparatively speaking, are more true, but I disagree with the assumption that the 'fit' between these and human nature is necessarily better than that between our nature and those systems that we create ourselves.

whose assumption are you disagreeing with? and what is this assumption, exactly? how is science separate from "those systems we create ourselves"?

this is another thing people bring up about science. there is no such thing as "more" or "less" true in absolute terms. there are things which are right, until they aren't, and things which can be proved and/or disproved. what there isn't is some kind of meta-commentary things being more or less right (unless it's the personal opinion of an individual scientist).

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Science isn't a system, it's a procedure that systematically unveils/erects systems. But I would say it has a will-to-truth, whereas I prefer a will-to-utility and am happy to accept manifestly untrue propositions if they are more useful. For instance, I might be happy to accept the false or undecidable idea of God to help anchor ethics, as we may be better off with the ethical-system-as-conceived-with-the-idea-of-God than not.

 

[zhao]

I'm talking about qualities you attribute to various concepts like "indigenous" or "traditional" and, by extension, the people who stand in for them. it's all encapsulated in that insane statement you made to Tea about going to Indonesia or somewhere, & soaking up knowledge or some kind of vibe from the locals. as if they're just standing around waiting for you to show up so they can impart their spiritual wisdom to you. before you get hella defensive like always & start exclaiming that that's not what you mean at all, step back for a minute & think about it. or you could just keep repeating that "haters can't keep me down cos I KNOW I'm spreading the light" mantra. whatever, I guess.

sometimes the best, perhaps only way, to gain knowledge about a world view entirely different from one's own, is by going to that place, and only by doing so can one have experiential knowledge, which is of course the best kind. you can read some dude on the internet ramble on semi-coherently about a life saturated with a sense of mystery and wonder, of house spirits and forest spirits and jinns taking possession of a friend, and it all sounds pretty stupid; and only by living and breathing in a place where these things are just the normal everyday can one truly appreciate this other reality, and feel one's own perception and beliefs shift.

reality is perception: to experience a change of reality it is not enough to merely look at different things, the eyes themselves have to change. and to see the world through different eyes can signal a profound change in the person.

moving to the US when i was 12, i experienced this, in many ways profound, shift in reality, and was myself changed forever. i know, experientially, how much room there is for one's perspective to shift -- and to understand the mystical world view of, say, india, you pretty much have to go live there for a while. and if you keep an open mind and a pure heart, you will probably see some crazy motherfucking shit outside of your previous notions of what is possible, outside of your old reality.

whatever you want to ascribe to what i'm saying, "cultural tourism" or "exoticization" or "orientalism" or "racism", these are all in YOUR head and your head alone. (well and Nomads')

 

[lanugo]

Optogenetics: Brain/Internet Interface

They’d shown that a beam of light could control brain activity with great precision. The mouse didn’t lose its memory, have a seizure, or die. It ran in a circle. Specifically, a counterclockwise circle.

They now had an On switch for neurons. But in the brain, it’s as important to inhibit neurons as it is to make them fire. As with computers, 0 is as crucial as 1; they needed an Off switch, too. When Boyden finished his PhD, he took an appointment at MIT and began hunting for it. He found there was a bacterial gene, halorhodopsin, that had properties suggesting it could do the opposite of channelrhodopsin. In 2006, Boyden inserted halorhodopsin into neurons and exposed them to yellow light. They stopped firing. Beautiful.

The counterclockwise-running mouse was something new — a triple fusion of animal, plant, and technology — and the students knew it was a harbinger of unprecedentedly powerful ways to alter the brain. For curing diseases, to begin with, but also for understanding how the brain interacts with the body. And ultimately for fusing human and machine.

Mindblowing article! Maybe futuristic transhuman technomysticism is the way to go?

 

[nomadthethird]

Science isn't a system, it's a procedure that systematically unveils/erects systems. But I would say it has a will-to-truth, whereas I prefer a will-to-utility and am happy to accept manifestly untrue propositions if they are more useful. For instance, I might be happy to accept the false or undecidable idea of God to help anchor ethics, as we may be better off with the ethical-system-as-conceived-with-the-idea-of-God than not.

Yes, because, obviously, believing in gods has made the world such an ethical place.

QED, as they say.

Ever see the videos of dogs running out into traffic on the freeway to save other injured dogs?

Do you think the dogs do that because they believe in god, or because it's the right thing to do? Because most mammalian species are hardwired this way?

 

[nomadthethird]

you know, nomad, you have on many occasions expressed disdain for my musical project. you have time and again used "cultural tourism", "exoticization", "orientalism", and even "racism" to describe my involvement in music from around the world.

you are of course welcome to think what you like, but i would like to tell you that many times i have met people who come from the place that produced the music i was playing, and every single time, with out exception, they have been over joyed to hear their beloved songs so far away from home.

when i opened up for Namibian Kwaito singer Gazza, among the people who came up to the dj booth were Kenyans, Tanzanians, Ghanaians, people from Mozambique... all beside themselves with delight at hearing music from their home land, and said that they wished they could hear it more often in Germany. one Kenyan man told me the last time he heard this particular song it was over 15 years ago... with this... look in his eyes.

likewise i have met people from Turkhia this way. from Egypt. from Venezuela. Cuba. my trumpet player is from Cuba, and he originally got in contact with me, because he was into what i do.

in short, you are the ONLY person that has EVER seen my musical project the way you see it.

not saying that it's not a valid way to look at it. just saying.

I have not given a second thought to your music, ever in my life. You are the one who seems eager to mention it. It hadn't really crossed my mind.

From what I can tell from what you're saying in these few posts, it does seem to be a general extension of your worldview, though. Pomo eclecticism.

If you like that sort of thing, go for it. Whatever.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Do you think the dogs do that because they believe in god, or because it's the right thing to do? Because most mammalian species are hardwired this way?

I completely agree that we behave ethically because empathy for others is hard-wired in us, but in the absence of the guidance of instinctive fellow-feeling one would want compelling reasons to step into the breach. And these reasons can be made more compelling than they would otherwise be if founded on useful untruths: eg. immutable, eternal human 'rights,' God wishes it so etc.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The one possibly imaginary thing I think it might be 'useful' to believe in is free will. God(s), not so much.

I completely agree that we behave ethically because empathy for others is hard-wired in us, but in the absence of the guidance of instinctive fellow-feeling one would want compelling reasons to step into the breach. And these reasons can be made more compelling than they would otherwise be if founded on useful untruths: eg. immutable, eternal human 'rights,' God wishes it so etc.

Raising the rather thorny question, "whose God?"...

 

[Room with a view]

i'm mysterious as and i'd like to keep it that way. maybe next time i could reincarnate as Way Mysterious jr.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

The one possibly imaginary thing I think it might be 'useful' to believe in is free will. God(s), not so much.

Well look, if, by way of the scientific process, free will is shown to be an illusion, we not only would be better off believing in free will for the purposes of social order (in order to justify the justice system as it currently stands), we would also still not be able not to believe in our own personal free will - there would be a fundamental disconnect between what we know to be the case and our own subjective experiences (as even current adherents of the no-free-will-theory still act as if they and everyone else has at least a modicum of free will). This is one way in which an unravelling of the mysterious might lead to alienation.

So, generally speaking, there are limits to the extent to which we can act on the conclusions of science and rational enquiry and argument. Another example: say that, by virtue of science establishing that the universe is infinite and through the process of logical argument, it was taken to be true that our personal actions cannot be said to be ethically good or bad (infinitarian ethics), there is no doubt that we would decide to trump the scientific, rational process and ignore these conclusions (a kind of political correctness, if you will) as the behaviour then expected of us would go against the inherent grain of our nature - we would not be able to bring ourselves to act as if we actually believed it to be true (more alienation). This already happens: we attenuate or ignore the truth claims of science if we decide that they are generally unhelpful or if we cannot bring ourselves to act on them, and this is not necessarily a bad thing to do!

 

[DannyL]

The one possibly imaginary thing I think it might be 'useful' to believe in is free will. God(s), not so much.

QUOTE]

You should have a look at this book, Mt Tea
http://www.happinesshypothesis.com/ (can lend it you if you want). One of the best books I read last year.

It's one of those positive psychology (science of happiness) books but is really very, very good. he writes very persuasively about the benefits of religion based on his work in social psychology - the science is pretty rigourous as far as I can tell. Apparently, science has proven that religious beliefs make one a lot happier! Stick that in your bunsen burner, Richard Dawkins. In terms of community involvement, positive effect on emotion, charitable works, and ummm I guess "ontological grounding" - and more besides.

I like the books because he's an atheist but one who can write about religion without being condescending or aggressive. He can see other people's perspectives pretty clearly even if he disagrees (of possible relevance to this thread!). he writes very well on the sacred/secular divide in the US.

Zhao, one of the things I don't like about your argument here is it's a bit of an appeal to privelged experience - you seem to be implying that unless someone has had the experience of moving across cultures they can't understand what you are saying. If you are going to base your statements on an experience most people haven't had or don't have access to - well, no wonder it's getting a bit circular.

 

[zhao]

Zhao, one of the things I don't like about your argument here is it's a bit of an appeal to privelged experience - you seem to be implying that unless someone has had the experience of moving across cultures they can't understand what you are saying. If you are going to base your statements on an experience most people haven't had or don't have access to - well, no wonder it's getting a bit circular.

yeah i understand what you're saying... and you're right it's a bit solipsistic. but... sometimes there is simply no other way... shrug.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

you will probably see some crazy motherfucking shit outside of your previous notions of what is possible, outside of your old reality.

yes, and most if it has to do with poverty & struggle (*interspersed w/joy & small triumphs & the million things that make up day-to-day life anywhere - the point being people are 3-D, not cardboard spiritual cutouts), not fucking magic and spirits. lots of Mayans practice a syncretic version of Catholicism mixed with bits & pieces of their traditional religion, but mostly the dudes I met worried about weather & the price of corn. like, wouldn't it be cool if we could get paid more for our crops so we didn't have to leave our families & go find work in cities or the U.S.? oh yeah & if the women didn't have to walk hella far to the river to get water every day? dudes were devout but sacred power or whatever was, yunno, a bit down on the list of concerns. OTOH, you can afford not to give a shit about any of that & focus on your own "journey", so, hey. just don't kid yourself that it's anything other than tourism.

it's like you miss the whole point of magical realism. all you see is the magic & you forget the realism half of it. fuck, what is Garcia Marquez if not political? Calvino was a disillusioned Communist. even Rushdie wrote a book about the Sandinistas. meanwhile, you'd like us all to have a dance party and dress up in stupid costumes.

far more serious people have been saying it far better than you for a long time.

these are all in YOUR head and your head alone.

oh yes, the oldest Internet trick in the book (& your go-to move); reversing what someone says & claiming that it actually applies to them. though it in this case, it does. it should be in your head, too - esp. for a dude who's so truth-to-power anti-colonialism & all.

 

[zhao]

yes, and most if it has to do with poverty & struggle, not fucking magic and spirits. lots of Mayans practice a syncretic version of Catholicism mixed with bits & pieces of their traditional religion, but mostly the dudes I met worried about weather & the price of corn. like, wouldn't it be cool if we could get paid more for our crops so we didn't have to leave our families & go find work in cities or the U.S.? oh yeah & if the women didn't have to walk hella far to the river to get water every day? dudes were devout but sacred power or whatever was, yunno, a bit down on the list of concerns. OTOH, you can afford not to give a shit about any of that & focus on your own "journey", so, hey. just don't kid yourself that it's anything other than tourism.

it's like you miss the whole point of magical realism. all you see is the magic & you forget the realism half of it. fuck, what is Garcia Marquez if not political? Calvino was a disillusioned Communist. even Rushdie wrote a book about the Sandinistas. meanwhile, you'd like us all to have a dance party and dress up in stupid costumes.

far more serious people have been saying it far better than you for a long time.



oh yes, the oldest Internet trick in the book (& your go-to move); reversing what someone says & claiming that it actually applies to them. though it in this case, it does. it should be in your head, too - esp. for a dude who's so truth-to-power anti-colonialism & all.

hey padraig.

this thread.

this one right here.

you know which one?

this one.

this thread.

here.

this one ------ is about the magic.

i have started other threads about the realism.

comprende???