malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
What do you reccomend? Also, if this is really an incel forum, I shouldn't post here...
The Feminine Perspective against the Manosphere
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shiels
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The point is despite certain fixed themes and traits or stabilised hormonal states and behaviours …masculinity is also nebulous, insecure, ambiguous. Which is why it has to be continuously redefined and defended and differs across cultures and time and all that. So it’s shaky ground to start on yeah
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
I mean that's Butler's point though. Despite efforts to the contrary, our definition of masculinity or femininity will always be historical, unstable, incomplete and in need of updating. Starting on shaky ground is just fine with me.
Yes, but as I said the point is not to remove the pain, but to re-direct the pain so they take it out on the patriarchy and capitalism. There have always been men with bad looks and personality. But only today is the internet radicalizing men to commit violence because of it. The question for me is how do we turn those men from the path of violence?
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
How do you recommend I refine my arguments? Eventually I want to write a dissertation on male femininity and Butler, so I'm all ears. (I have an MA, not a PhD.)
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
Are you saying that anti-capitalism and feminism aren't worthwhile endeavors then? Are you saying there's no alternative to the dominant mainstream culture?
I think counterculture is worth pursuing. I also think that men can see how things like conventional beauty standards and economic inequality influence their own lives, and I think we can organize these men to fight these sort of social conditions if we can convince them that these social conditions should be the target of their rage.
shiels
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But you can also see things where those broad forces were concentrated eg women’s suffrage or the Irish famine. And to come back to my point see that with say suffrage the behaviours to achieve the goals win contrast to accepted feminine behaviours of the time and all that
luka
Well-known member
i dont know what this means
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
And God knows, you've tried.
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
Right but you can't take a goal like stopping men from turning to violent terrorism and achieve that goal by terroristic means.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Sissy terrorists would be very entertaining, I think. Drag jihadis!
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
The term is cisgendered heterosexual sissy. So no drag. Try again. Here's a hint: my idiosyncratic interpretation (or as Butler would say, my attempt at a "resignification") of the word "sissy" means a man who acts feminine while presenting as a man. This is why it's not just about femdom. After all, if I'm the feminine one, why can't I be the femdom?
As for how acting feminine will de-radicalize men, one should hope the feminine practices of love, community-building, and emotional availability, would be enough to stop some men from being violent. But it's true I've never successfully de-radicalized an incel. But I can't see why an incel who had a loving community available to him where he felt his emotions were heard would be violent.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I guess we're all just going to continue getting baited, except jenks who has the wisdom to stay away, cos I just can't with this nonsense
People are uninterested in your theory and the very specific and narrow confines within which it demands the patriarchy be fought. To say that people are uninterested in something bc they're not interested in your version of that thing is totally wrong. I get that you spent 10 years or whatever coming with a theory that you unfortunately seem to have invested most of your self-worth in, but it doesn't obligate anyone to agree with you.
And here's why a non-reductionist version fails: you cannot take every instance of human behavior and place it into separate masculine and feminine boxes. OBVIOUSLY there is much behavior which is coded to some greater or lesser degree one or other, but it is a spectrum, not a neatly defined binary (I see @shiels just said basically the same thing). Your first example was joshi wrestling. When asked why it was inherently "feminine culture" besides that it's womrn wrestling yr answer was basically, if you don't get why that's feminine culture I don't what to tell you.
You're the gender studies scholar, not us, but I have to imagine gender studies is more about analyzing why and how certain behaviors are coded in the ways that they are than sorting them into masculine or feminine boxes and telling anyone who disagrees that they don't care about fighting patriarchy (tho it's academia, so v possibly it is more bitter petty infighting I guess)
Like maybe take a second to reflect on an almost complete failure to sell your thinking to a largely sympathetic audience instead of telling everyone else they're bad and wrong
Patently untrue
People are uninterested in your theory and the very specific and narrow confines within which it demands the patriarchy be fought. To say that people are uninterested in something bc they're not interested in your version of that thing is totally wrong. I get that you spent 10 years or whatever coming with a theory that you unfortunately seem to have invested most of your self-worth in, but it doesn't obligate anyone to agree with you.
And here's why a non-reductionist version fails: you cannot take every instance of human behavior and place it into separate masculine and feminine boxes. OBVIOUSLY there is much behavior which is coded to some greater or lesser degree one or other, but it is a spectrum, not a neatly defined binary (I see @shiels just said basically the same thing). Your first example was joshi wrestling. When asked why it was inherently "feminine culture" besides that it's womrn wrestling yr answer was basically, if you don't get why that's feminine culture I don't what to tell you.
You're the gender studies scholar, not us, but I have to imagine gender studies is more about analyzing why and how certain behaviors are coded in the ways that they are than sorting them into masculine or feminine boxes and telling anyone who disagrees that they don't care about fighting patriarchy (tho it's academia, so v possibly it is more bitter petty infighting I guess)
Like maybe take a second to reflect on an almost complete failure to sell your thinking to a largely sympathetic audience instead of telling everyone else they're bad and wrong
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
It's a Matt Walsh wet dream. Carte blanche to drop the thin subtext and openly call for executing trans people in the street.
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
Again the reason I said no one here wants to fight the patriarchy is that no one gave any strategies for fighting the patriarchy. The closest we got was a guy passing out platitudes about how we should be nice to women and date them. Too bad he forgot that incels don't date women. So that was a pretty weak alternative to my strategy of anti-patriarchal feminine behavior. I want a way we can fight anti-feminist redpill and blackpill culture. No one gave any other examples of anti-patriarchal strategies but me.
You just repeated your argument about the reductionist version of my argument. I never once said that you can take every instance of human behavior and classify it as either feminine or masculine. I said that, within the limits of gendered behavior, men can act feminine to undermine the gender binary. That's fine if you want to practice non-gendered behavior to undermine the patriarchy. You just need to give examples of what that gender-netural behavior is, and you haven't. All I'm saying is that feminine behavior can subvert the dominant masculine culture. That's my strategy.
Obviously gender is a spectrum, that's one of my main points. Because gender is a spectrum we can defy the gender binary. My main example of this is a man who acts feminine while persisting as a man. The fact that you consider me a "gender studies scholar" which I never identified as (though I take it as a compliment since I will gladly accept job offers from gender studies departments) then turned around and said I didn't know one of the main assumptions of gender theory, namely that gender is a spectrum, shows that you have underestimate how much thought I put into my views.
That's not even close to my interpretation of joshi. On Joshi, my interpretation was that, because the women are equally as violent as the most violent men while remaining beautiful through the use of nice, feminine outfits like flowing gowns. And then Akira Hokuto does a 270 Senton off the apron in a wedding dress. That seems like an example of feminine cullture to me. It certainly can't be seen as an inferior knockoff to men's wrestling as women's wrestling has often be promoted in America. The point is that the women are equal to the men if not better.
But it ain't about joshi. Take a look at the Sleater-Kinney song I posted earlier and tell me that's not feminine culture. While you're at it, tell me that the Sandman by Neil Gaiman isn't a great example of feminine culture done by a man. Death is the most famous character from that series and she is a feminine woman and she is depicted as one of the most powerful forces in the universe, as Death should be. If a superpowerful, emotionally affecting, beautiful, feminine female character is not enough for you, what is?
Ahahahaha. I never said I was a gender studies scholar. I couldn't tell you what gender studies is about. I just read Judith Butler and Luce Irigaray and give my interpretation of certain cultural art-works and practices as feminine. I probably could get hired to teach an Intro to Gender Studies class, but all I would do would be teach about Foucault and Judith Butler. So what you're getting from me is my picture of gender studies simplified.
And maybe take a second to think about how I didn't say everyone is bad and wrong. I said no one gave examples of non-gendered behavior thats subverts the patriarchy and I said no one gave strategies for how to subvert the masculine culture. And I said that your criticism of my anti-reductionist argument fails because it says nothing new. It says the same thing as your criticism of the reductionist version of my argument, meaning it does not respond to my anti-reductionist argument.