Johnny Rotten meets Tommy Vance uptown

john eden

male pale and stale
Peter Hammill? Tim Buckley?!

You can almost hear Malcolm Mclaren gnashing his teeth in despair at Rotten's selection, dickhead that he was...:p

I think, Mclaren's character aside, that THE most interesting thing about this is Rotten asserting his individuality and how that breaks with Mclaren's mapped out (proscriptive) vision of what punk should be about.

I have mixed feelings about this because obviously it works really well as a selection and adds some depth to "the man".

But perhaps it also humanises "Johnny Rotten" and takes some of the power away from punk being a complete negation of 70s mainstream values. It's less threatening if he is a nice bloke with a good record collection.

What do other people think about that? I haven't made up my mind by any means.
 

Tyro

The Kandy Tangerine Man
I think, Mclaren's character aside, that THE most interesting thing about this is Rotten asserting his individuality and how that breaks with Mclaren's mapped out (proscriptive) vision of what punk should be about.

I have mixed feelings about this because obviously it works really well as a selection and adds some depth to "the man".

But perhaps it also humanises "Johnny Rotten" and takes some of the power away from punk being a complete negation of 70s mainstream values. It's less threatening if he is a nice bloke with a good record collection.

What do other people think about that? I haven't made up my mind by any means.


I've got no doubt that Rotten loves to 'throw a spanner in the works' so to speak and The Pistols could have ended up sounding like an edgier Faces without his imput.Fine [and for the time brave] though the selection was,I do feel that some of his choices were a quirky take on established tastes.

He dismissed 'sixties bands' after admitting he had been obsessed by The Beatles and then picked an obscure track by The Creation that could have fitted on the Sargent Pepper LP.He didnt choose the Velvet Underground [a name many were dropping at the time]but instead went for John Cale and Nico.He has since admitted loving Pink Floyd,but they are off limits at this time,so he goes for Can..A lot has been made of his love for reggae,but this he shared with both Clapton and the Stones.


http://www.myspace.com/thekandytangerineman
 

jenks

thread death
I love the bit where he sounds like a schoolkid when told they'll play the whole Can track at 17 mins or whatever it is.
 

Tyro

The Kandy Tangerine Man
I think, Mclaren's character aside, that THE most interesting thing about this is Rotten asserting his individuality and how that breaks with Mclaren's mapped out (proscriptive) vision of what punk should be about.

I dont think that McClaren had a really strict idea of what 'punk' should sound like though.He was working with the tools at hand.''The Great Rock N Roll Swindle'' soundtrack gives a hint of his vision.
Listen to the ''Duck Rock'' LP.The scope of it is simply astounding.If he had a group of oprea singers in 1976,he would have dressed them in Seditionaries clothing and told them to sing about anarchy.


http://www.myspace.com/thekandytangerineman
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I dont think that McClaren had a really strict idea of what 'punk' should sound like though.He was working with the tools at hand.''The Great Rock N Roll Swindle'' soundtrack gives a hint of his vision.
Listen to the ''Duck Rock'' LP.The scope of it is simply astounding.If he had a group of oprea singers in 1976,he would have dressed them in Seditionaries clothing and told them to sing about anarchy.

Yeah you're right, but I don't think I meant what it sounded like either. He had a clear vision of punk as against any other form of music I think - the idea that the pistols would associate themselves with any form of existing music, be music "fans", was anathema. "we're not into music - we're into chaos' etc

but yeah, the stuff he did later with Trevor Horn and the world famous supreme team is awesome. Dunno much of the opera stuff but I used to have madame butterfly and that was alright.
 

Tyro

The Kandy Tangerine Man
In some ways the inclusion of an Irish Jig was the bravest choice he made.It was NOT cool [or particualy safe] to be of Irish origin in London at the time.With the threat of IRA bombing in the air Irish people were treated with hostility and suspicion as well as having their cultural activities openly ridiculed.

No Pogues/Irish Theme Bars and Musicals in 1977! LOL!

I have a lasting memory of meeting Rotten at the dawn of the eighties.A theatrical costumers in Covent Garden was having a closing down sale and was descended on by a host of New Romantics and other assorted Weirdos and Punks.The sale was located three floors up in an old warehouse building.When I finally bunked off school to get down there most of the stock was gone,but I noticed Jeanette Lee from Public Image Limited searching through the remains and Rotten sitting close by staring out of an open window.He denied being Rotten when I asked,so an autograph was clearly not going to be given [even if I had the bottle to request one!].I then asked if he had picked anything up [meaning clothes in the sale].He cast a withering eye around the room and said ''A few fleas and tics'' adding that he was happy where he was as he could easily gob on the passers by below.He was completely the same character I had seen/heard being interviewed and was thrilled to be on the receiving end of his dry wit.I had a feeling that his patience would soon run out,so I left the conversation there.He is truely one of the great showbiz characters and I'm sure he could have turned his hand to stand up comedy if he had wished to!


http://www.myspace.com/thekandytangerineman
 
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Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Yeah you're right, but I don't think I meant what it sounded like either. He had a clear vision of punk as against any other form of music I think - the idea that the pistols would associate themselves with any form of existing music, be music "fans", was anathema. "we're not into music - we're into chaos' etc

QUOTE]

The whole 'we're not into music' thing was just a total pose though wasn't it? Truth is it was Mclaren who wasn't into music, not the pistols themselves. It was refreshing to hear Rotten put aside the phoney rhetoric for a change and start pulling away from Mclaren's sphere of influence. I thought he came across as pretty genuine in his selections, which begin to map out some of the territory that PiL would later explore. Fascinating...
 

petergunn

plywood violin
I've got no doubt that Rotten loves to 'throw a spanner in the works' so to speak and The Pistols could have ended up sounding like an edgier Faces without his imput.Fine [and for the time brave] though the selection was,I do feel that some of his choices were a quirky take on established tastes.

He dismissed 'sixties bands' after admitting he had been obsessed by The Beatles and then picked an obscure track by The Creation that could have fitted on the Sargent Pepper LP.He didnt choose the Velvet Underground [a name many were dropping at the time]but instead went for John Cale and Nico.He has since admitted loving Pink Floyd,but they are off limits at this time,so he goes for Can..A lot has been made of his love for reggae,but this he shared with both Clapton and the Stones.


http://www.myspace.com/thekandytangerineman


yeah, but hold in back for a sec... he was just a 21 or 22 year old working class kid living in the late 70's... even from the foresight of being a record collector in 2007, he is dropping some serious serious shit... Bobby Byrd "back from the dead" is a track even alot of serious funk fans don't know (that and "headqaurters" are his best post JB stuff)... he is playing the cream of the crop from that time and most artists he played (beefheart, tim buckley) garner far more respect now than they did then! (makes me wonder when people will wake up to the greatness of Peter Hammill!)

also, as any music nerd will tell you, splitting hairs is the most important part: ie. Nirvana are good, Pearl Jam are shit... pre-Tommy Who are great, Tommy and Post-tommy who are shit...


I think, Mclaren's character aside, that THE most interesting thing about this is Rotten asserting his individuality and how that breaks with Mclaren's mapped out (proscriptive) vision of what punk should be about.

I have mixed feelings about this because obviously it works really well as a selection and adds some depth to "the man".

But perhaps it also humanises "Johnny Rotten" and takes some of the power away from punk being a complete negation of 70s mainstream values. It's less threatening if he is a nice bloke with a good record collection.

What do other people think about that? I haven't made up my mind by any means.

i think it was neccesary... the "year zero" punk image of Rotten as the country's nightmare had gotten old for both him (the violence he suffered) and for the public (a one dimensional bugaboo can only last so long)... it was perfect for the time, the mythos of the painfullly rage filled lad from the gutter raging against the Queen and hippies and basically being a living echo of the Goebbels quote "when i hear the word 'culture', i reach for my gun", yet ironically it took a man of culture to produce such a fascinating "anti-culture" figure... i mean, the "real" embodiement of Rotten would be people like Jimmy Pursey and his various Oi disciples, but they don't have one kilowatt of his star power or creative force, do they?

Rotten WAS a persona and this was the first time the mask was taken down...

in the Jon Savage book i believe Savage says something like "to McLaren this was a shit intertview, as it established Lydon as a man of taste and humanized him and removed his threat. johnny rotten revealed himself as a mild mannered chap with a streets of islington accent"...

he does become less threatening, but he does become more interesting...

the role of "Rotten", was by definition self-limiting and self-destructive... how long can one pretend to hate ALL MUSIC, especially when one is creating such amazing music oneself?

reflect all that thru the terror of being a nation wide enemy and you can see why the cartoon image of Johnny Rotten ran it's day...

it's ok tho, for those who like their mainstream value rejectors to always indulge in complete negation, don't forget Johnny's pal, Sid!
 

john eden

male pale and stale
he does become less threatening, but he does become more interesting...

Is bang on I think.

Also bringing Sid into it is good - if the exit strategies from 'total negation' are suicide or being humanised, then the latter is the only sensible option really, unless you are a really heartless manipulator
 

dHarry

Well-known member
^^ - absolutely; he played the antisocial antichrist to the hilt for a while, but of course a major part of it it was pure pantomime.

Interesting also where he says Bowie took a lot from Peter Hammill, but it sounds like he took a fair bit too - Nobody's Business could be a Pistols or PiL song with different production/intrumentation and the vocal style is quite Rotten - he even sings the chorus before the record is played.

And the Kevin Coyne track is quite trad-rock isn't it? Could be a Stones song, from someone who claims that the Stones mean "absolutely nothing" to him; maybe it's just his generational iconoclasm, needing to have something to define himself against, despite dropping the nihilistic yob persona.
 

martin

----
And the Kevin Coyne track is quite trad-rock isn't it? Could be a Stones song, from someone who claims that the Stones mean "absolutely nothing" to him; maybe it's just his generational iconoclasm, needing to have something to define himself against, despite dropping the nihilistic yob persona.

Kevin Coyne's a bit nuts, isn't he? I've only heard that LP he did with the German woman from Beaver and Krause which is supposed to be based on the Moors Murderers, it's straight stuff but slightly unhinged in places. Wasn't Coyne an ex-psychiatric nurse?
 

STN

sou'wester
Yeah, Coyne was a psychiatric nurse for a while. I never heard that LP with Dagmar Krause (is it called Bubble? Bauble?) is it any good?
 

martin

----
Hard to say, I thought some of it was interesting but I wouldn't actually think "Yeah I fancy listening to that". I had it on CD-R, maybe I still have, will have a look and you can have it if I find it. 'I haven't listened to it for over a year' is the short answer. Yeah, it was 'Babble'
 

STN

sou'wester
Oh, cheers Martin.

I haven't had the chance to listen to the radio show yet as my laptop is being foul.

In Rotten's biography he mentions loving The Doors and owning 17 Kinks albums (a darn sight more than I own and no mistake). I think the onstage persona versus real-life person can be traced back to his love of Alice Cooper.
 

dHarry

Well-known member
I love that they went to the bother of those looped Pistols snippets and quotation collages - and in '77 this surely could only be done by cutting and splicing up tape.

Rotten/Lydon doesn't mention Tosh/Legalise It anywhere, and Vance says that they'll wrap up with Can, which leads me to wonder if Vance added Legalise It at the end to suggest that Rotten is stoned - he obviously sounds more mellow and reflective than the expected vitriol and spleen...

Any chance we could get Vance on here to tell us more about it?! Edit: apparently not :(


More news just in!!
:

Sex Pistols live at Brixton Academy!

Maybe it's because we're all Londoners, but there would be no Sex Pistol without dear old London town.

See you all at Brixton with proper feelings and proper people all around.

From London Bridge to the Rose and Crown, all of Britain is welcome so come on down.

John Lydon.
The Horses Mouth.
September 18th 2007.

Sex Pistols live at London, Brixton Academy, Thursday November 8th, 2007. Tickets go on sale this Friday, September 21st.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
am very tempted to go to this.

PUBLIC IMAGE REUNITE FOR TOUR
So this is interesting in a kind of intriguing/horrifying way. John Lydon's post-Sex Pistols band, Public Image Ltd, will reunite for a tour to mark the 30th anniversary of their 'Metal Box' album later this year. Although Lydon will be the only original member of the band on board. He will be joined by guitarist Lu Edmonds, former Pop Group drummer Bruce Smith (both of whom played with the band in the late eighties) and bassist Scott Firth.

The decision to resurrect the band was apparently inspired by Lydon's father's death in 2008 and his brother's recent battle with cancer. Lydon told BBC 6 Music: "It was a very harsh time for me emotionally and I started paying attention to 'Death Disco', the record I wrote about my mother dying. I've always been wrapped around some sort of emotional tragedy through PiL, but also great joy. It's a chance to express every single human emotion possible. Although the Pistols is a most fantastic band to be a member of, there's more going on in me than that".

Talking up the shows, he said: "Anyone who's ever been to a PiL gig knows that there won't be anything that you're familiar with. It just isn't like that. There's a whole wash of new material that I haven't used yet but I will be doing some kindly drop-ins to some PiL anthems".
 

martin

----
I'd be tempted, if it wasn't for the mention of 'new material' - also, aren't that band the ones who played on 'Live In Tokyo'? Where they managed to make even the best stuff off the first album sound dismal.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Do you think Kele Okereke might give it a miss?

That episode is what really sticks in my head about Lydon recently. Great music, but he acted like a complete cunt there, right down to his cowardly evasiveness afterwards.
 
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