Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
thanks for the sentiments. I mean, as I said we weren't intimate tho I would definitely call him a friend.

this probably isn't a novel reaction but at first I was appalled, then I was sad, then I was filled with this blinding rage. now I'm back to feeling sad. I mean, I know comparable & much worse stuff happens to Palestinians (& some, tho obv many many fewer, Jews) on a regular basis & there was Rachel Corrie & that British guy who's name I can't remember (just googled it - Tom Hurndall). & I've seen people get beat up at demonstrations, I've been beat up myself, but nothing like this, ever.

all this, I dunno, I mean it's hard to explain - but if you'd known the guy, he's just such a good-hearted, bright person. none of the cynicism you find in people half his age, myself included. & now he's going to have permanent brain damage, to some degree at least.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
droid said:
How so? Was it because of that resolution which gave them a state or the fact that they make the odd meek protest everytime Israel deliberately attacks its facilities and kills its employees?
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I feel like there's worthwhile discussion to be had on this topic but tbh I don't really feel like it right now.

& to echo what you said, I have nothing but respect for solidarity activists.
 
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scottdisco

rip this joint please
On August 13, 2009, Human Rights Watch released a report, "White Flag Deaths: Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead," documenting serious violations of the laws of war by Israeli forces during Operation Cast Lead. Instead of responding to the findings of the report, Israeli officials are trying to discredit the report and Human Rights Watch by making false allegations.
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http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/08/...about-human-rights-watch-s-latest-gaza-report
 
D

droid

Guest
Hmmm....

Human Rights Watch say destruction in Gaza 'unlawful'

The Israeli army unlawfully destroyed civilian property in its 22-day offensive in Gaza in 2008 and 2009, a report by Human Rights Watch says.

Israeli forces destroyed buildings that had "no military significance", a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Conventions, the report said.

The New-York based group have documented 12 cases that they say must be investigated.

The IDF denies the charges and says it has investigated the incursion already.

Palestinians and rights groups say more than 1,400 Gazans died in the conflict, known as Operation Cast Lead, but Israel puts the figure at 1,166. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians, were killed.

'IDF control'

Human Rights Watch documented the complete destruction of 189 buildings, including 11 factories, 8 warehouses and 170 residential buildings, leaving at least 971 people homeless during the operation which began in December 2008.

The 12 incidents documented in the report account for roughly 5% of the homes, factories and warehouses destroyed in Gaza during the operation the report said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8680769.stm
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well obviously I'm not trying to compare the scale of these demolitions to the devastation wreaked by the IDF - just thought some of the ME-watchers here might be interested in the story.
 
D

droid

Guest
Mr. Tea said:
Well obviously I'm not trying to compare the scale of these demolitions to the devastation wreaked by the IDF - just thought some of the ME-watchers here might be interested in the story.
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Of course. I wasn't implying otherwise. Just thought it was interesting that the 2 stories came up on the same day. The Hamas angle deserves a closer look IMO.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ah right, sorry. Your story looks like it came up last Thursday, though?

It's great that such a high-profile organisation is drawing attention to these crimes (though it says the report "stops short of saying outright that war crimes were committed") but you'll forgive me for not being optimistic about any meaningful international action being taken as a result...
 
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droid

Guest
Mr. Tea said:
Ah right, sorry. Your story looks like it came up last Thursday, though?

It's great that such a high-profile organisation is drawing attention to these crimes (though it says the report "stops short of saying outright that war crimes were committed") but you'll forgive me for not being optimistic about any meaningful international action being taken as a result...
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LOL. I was at a wedding from Thursday and only read the HRW story yesterday in the Irish Times...

But yes, I agree. Israel's almost certain acceptance into the OECD certainly says a lot.
 
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droid

Guest
There was a lot of coverage about it in left circles here as we could have vetoed the motion - but we didnt... the Irish army is also planning to buy bullets from the IDF, which is quite chilling seeing as the historical realtionship between Israeli bullets and Irish soldiers involves them being in front of the bullets rather than behind them.

In a similar vein - this is quite disturbing, and is very obviously aimed at one particular neighbouring state:

PROJECTILE DYSFUNCTION - IRON DOME, ISRAEL, TRIDENT, AND THE MEDIA


Last week, the BBC reported Barack Obama's request to Congress for $200 million in military aid to assist Israel's construction of a short-range rocket defence system, Iron Dome. The funding will be in addition to the $3 billion in military aid the US annually sends to Israel. A BBC online article explained:

"The system is designed to shoot down mortars and rockets from Gaza or Southern Lebanon with guided missiles." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8681919.stm)

Details were provided:

"Iron Dome was conceived and developed in Israel following the Lebanon war of 2006, during which Hezbollah launched about 4,000 rockets into northern Israel. Southern Israel has also come under fire, with thousands of rockets and mortars fired by Palestinian militants."

The BBC failed to mention that during the 2006 war Lebanon was subjected to 12,000 Israeli bombing raids, 2,500 navy shells, 100,000 army shells and 4.6 million cluster bombs. (Jane's Defence Weekly, 'The war in numbers,' August 23, 2006 and http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/02/17/israel-s-use-cluster-bombs-shows-need-global-ban)

Even prior to the December 27, 2008 Operation Cast Lead offensive - when Israel attacked Gaza with hundreds of bombing raids and drone attacks, and thousands of artillery and tank shells - 14 Israelis had been killed by mostly home-made rockets fired from Gaza over the previous seven years as against 5,000 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces. Some 1,400 Palestinians were massacred in the Cast Lead assault.

The BBC reported the US administration's "unshakeable commitment" to Israeli security, adding that Obama "recognised the threat posed by missiles and rockets fired by Hamas and Hezbollah".

Obama did not recognise the threat to Palestinians posed by Israeli forces and expressed no "unshakeable commitment" to Palestinian security. This ought to be surprising, given that the mainstream media habitually present the United States as an "honest broker" in the conflict. In 2006, Channel 4's Jonathan Rugman declared:

"If you think in the last week the US has given up its role as honest broker in the Middle East then now, it seems, they've taken it back." (Channel 4 News, July 21, 2006)

In 2000, a BBC 1 lunchtime news report described then President Bill Clinton as "the man who has spent eight years trying to bring permanent peace to the Middle East". (BBC1 Lunchtime News, October 16, 2000)

Edward Herman commented recently:

"U.S. officials repeat day-after-day that our 'solidarity' with Israel is an 'unshakeable bond,' that there is no 'space' between us and Israel on the issues, and that we have an 'absolute commitment to Israel's security' (Hillary Clinton). A large fraction of congress and the Senate appear regularly at AIPAC [The American Israel Public Affairs Committee] annual meetings to virtually pledge allegiance to the State of Israel, and Vice President Joseph Biden has publicly declared himself 'a Zionist,' with Israel 'the center of my work as a United States Senator and now as vice president of the United States...'"

"There is also no 'honest broker' in this fraudulent 'peace process' - honest brokering is inconsistent with complete 'solidarity' and a 'central commitment' to one side." (Herman, '"Protecting Israel's Ethnic Cleansing" - Deceptively Called "Protecting Israel's Security",' Z Magazine, May 2010)

To read the rest of this media alert, please go to:

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php
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scottdisco

rip this joint please
droid said:
the Irish army is also planning to buy bullets from the IDF, which is quite chilling seeing as the historical realtionship between Israeli bullets and Irish soldiers involves them being in front of the bullets rather than behind them.
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:eek:
 
D

droid

Guest
A murderous attack on a peace convoy carrying 100s of civilians, a Nobel Laureate, a Holocaust survivor, EU politicians and an arab-israeli member of the Knesset in international waters, followed by the kidnapping and detention of the entire flotilla. This is the worst act of international piracy since, well, since the last Israeli attack on a relief ship trying to break the blockade.

As well as displaying a stunning lack of concern for the consequences of their actions, both at home and abroad, Israel's acts in this case are (unambiguously) in serious breach of multiple international and maritime laws and are certainly a novel way to celebrate acceptance into the OECD.

Wars have been fought over less. If this massacre had been committed by almost any other state in the region the planes would probably already be in the air.

So whats new?
 
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paolo

Mechanical phantoms
It does seem highly unlikely that peace activists would fire on the Israelis, but is there actually any evidence that they didn't? As far as I can tell it's just one side's word against the other's at this point
 
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