Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Unfortunately the latter I think
Who knows what will happen in the wake of the chaos this war generates, and it's possible Lapid could return to power. But demographically as I think I said in the longer-term the indicators are bad. Israel is likely to get more religious, more hardline, less open, less tolerant. The religious just have more kids. A key point of the religious settler parties is intense homophobia on religious grounds. There's also specifically the ticking Haredi time bomb (basically, they neither fight nor contribute to the economy, which becomes a larger problem the greater % of the population they become).
It's something I've been thinking about for a long time. For all the bad things the Ashkenazi war heroes - esp Sharon and Netanyahu - have done, what comes after will probably be even worse.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Could be that he's just trying to do as much damage/make life as hard as possible for his successor, since he can't be unaware of how unpopular he is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opini...aeli_legislative_election#Netanyahu_vs._GantzIn today's settler fanatic news, Netanyahu just appointed this guy to head the Knesset's West Bank security sub-committee
Netanyahu appoints far-right MK as chairman of West Bank committee
Groups like Brothers in Arms and Peace Now accused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of endangering national security with the appointment.m.jpost.com
Hard to convey what a terrible idea this is. Zvi Sukkot is the living embodiment of hardline settler violence. It's like appointing David Duke to oversee a committee on race relations. Just hurling gasoline on a fire. Dangerous and crazy with no upside.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
This isn't like incumbent White House staff gluing locks shut or whatever to mess with the incoming staff tho. It's appointing a dangerous fanatic - literally, a terrorist - to a very sensitive and at least symbolically important position at the most dangerous possible time, a situation that could explode at any moment.
yyaldrin
in je ogen waait de wind
the haredi aren't nationalist at all though are they, some of them even opposing the state of israel?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
That is partly true. Some Haredim oppose Israel on the grounds that only the Messiah can initiate a Jewish state (there's more to it than that but that's the basic idea). Some - a significant minority, at least - are Zionists.
I should have clarified that the Haredi thing overlaps with religious nationalism but is a different challenge. Religious settlers are extremely dangerous and share some views, but the main problem with Haredi is as I said they mostly just leech off of secular society. Or, the women work, taking care of the million children each family has. The men just get govt stipends to study Torah. It's a crazy system. This is also frequently the case w/American Haredi btw (idk about Europe).
Incidentally they're widely despised by other Israelis. My dad who is "modern Orthodox", i.e. observant but has a secular job and did military service, loathes them.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
The main point w/Haredi politically is that they're as you might imagine extremely socially conservative, and an Israel that is like, 40% Haredi, will probably look a lot more like a theocracy
The main Haredi party has traditionally been Shas who advocate among other things for the imposition of Halakhic law. My dad was also a Shas voter for a time (idk now) despite as I said not liking Haredi, so like anything it can be complicated.
The main Haredi party has traditionally been Shas who advocate among other things for the imposition of Halakhic law. My dad was also a Shas voter for a time (idk now) despite as I said not liking Haredi, so like anything it can be complicated.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
They're also exempt from military service, aren't they? So it's doubly unfair on the rest.
version
Well-known member
Some of them work in tech.
The ultra-Orthodox Jews combining tech and the Torah
Israel's Haredi Jews have long led a life devoted to religious study but an increasing number are breaking with tradition and excelling in Israel's tech start-up sector.
www.bbc.co.uk
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Yes. They can serve but they're not obligated to. The same thing is true for Israeli Arabs but that makes much more sense.
Basically they subsist off the taxes of secular Israelis via govt stipends and are protected by the IDF while simultaneously telling secular Israels that they're not real Jews, and in some cases that the state which shelters and feeds them is illegitimate on religious grounds.
You begin to understand why they're so disliked.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Sure, there is some % exceptionsSome of them work in tech.
The ultra-Orthodox Jews combining tech and the Torah
Israel's Haredi Jews have long led a life devoted to religious study but an increasing number are breaking with tradition and excelling in Israel's tech start-up sector.www.bbc.co.uk
As the article notes, it's often difficult for them to transition to the regular economy bc they go to religious high schools that don't have a core focus on math, sciences, language, etc so they lack basic skills. Kudos to people trying to make that leap, tbc.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Some of them work in tech.
The ultra-Orthodox Jews combining tech and the Torah
Israel's Haredi Jews have long led a life devoted to religious study but an increasing number are breaking with tradition and excelling in Israel's tech start-up sector.www.bbc.co.uk
version
Well-known member
Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’
The BBC has analysed four strikes in south Gaza, where civilians were told to evacuate to.
www.bbc.co.uk
version
Well-known member
version
Well-known member
IDF soldiers film themselves abusing, humiliating West Bank Palestinians
Army investigating footage of soldiers hitting and mistreating detainees, amid mounting tensions and rising settler violence
www.timesofisrael.com
maxi
Well-known member
Been thinking about the quote I think Mr Tea said about "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic".
It's important to read the personal testimonies sometimes. I don't think one can get a true sense of the horror and loss without things like this, which B'tselem have been posting in the last few weeks.
It's important to read the personal testimonies sometimes. I don't think one can get a true sense of the horror and loss without things like this, which B'tselem have been posting in the last few weeks.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
So nobody at the supposed topmost university in the world was able to nail him so obv none of you will be able to. This is the definitive take /end thread
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
You're doing it again: saying something is a bad opinion but giving no reason other than that it's bad because your bogeyman du jour has said something similar. In order to have a proper opinion you need to have thought it through yourself rather than just algorithmically prefixed someone else's opinion with 'NOT'. The major drawback of propounding superficial negations of your claimed foes' opinions is that they determine what you think and do...that's how people who call themselves 'anti-fascist' end up agitating for strict gender norms, the suppression of homosexuality, sterilisation of homosexuals and the gender non-conforming, and experimentation on children.
And to make it relevant to this thread, apparently the anti-fascist take here is to align oneself with theocratic, patriarchal, ultra-conservative, homophobic, illiberal terrorists over land ownership rights when land ownership per se is normally regarded by the left as an act of violent presumption no matter who asserts it.
Clearly the assumption that the enemy of your enemy would be your friend is topographically unsound: the enemy of your enemy may just be an even greater enemy.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Anything to say about Israel being, quite frankly, the friend of its enemy?
maxi
Well-known member
they might have ideals about land ownership rights in some distant future, but that doesn't mean you just forget you're living in the world in the current state it is and don't call for fair application of the law. also, personal land ownership issues aren't really the same as issues of self-determination and legally mandated statehood.
also it's palestinians as a whole who are being sided with here, not hamas (which I assume you're referring to with all those adjectives). you might be able to find some fringe people on twitter openly supporting hamas atrocities, but that's not applicable to the vast majority of those on the left speaking out about it.