Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
www.newarab.com

Jewish vigilantes target Armenian Christians in Jerusalem

Armed US citizen spotted in confrontations between Jewish settlers and Armenians has ties to Jerusalem’s Deputy Mayor Arieh King and the Israel Land Fund, a group whose mission is to settle Jews in occupied East Jerusalem.
www.newarab.com www.newarab.com
Detailed account of how settler militants steal property in East Jerusalem with the collusion of RW Israeli politicians (in this case, deputy mayor Aryeh King) and the settler infrastructures that exists to recruit and radicalize young American Jews


More context from an Israeli lawyers specializing in Jerusalem land appropriation etc. He's worth a follow if you're at all interested in this.

www.972mag.com

J'lem deputy mayor to Palestinian activist: It's a 'pity' you weren't shot in the head

Jerusalem Deputy Mayor Aryeh King mocks a Palestinian who had been previously shot. The municipality calls his remarks a 'personal matter.'
www.972mag.com www.972mag.com
More on King, stealing land, racism, and his ties to Kahanists like Ben-Gvir and Bentzi Gopstein
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The campus antisemitism is so goddamn dumb btw. No one can point to any actual genocidal claims so the claim is that "what you're saying means what we say it does rather than what you say it does so it's genocidal bc we said so". I.e. "from the river to sea" (a phrase which is literally in Likud's founding charter btw) is taken to mean kill all the Jews rather than full equality for Palestinians, and "globalize the intifada" is taken to mean kill everyone rather than global solidarity in resistance. It's a strategy to reframe the terms of debate bc influential hasbara types understand the invasion and bombing are essentially indefensible on their own terms. One of the easiest and clearest ways to see this is that the term intifada has existed in popular consciousness for almost 40 years and only started being associated with genocide a couple weeks ago.

It's the same as the gaslighting tactic of blaming 100% of the destruction and death (an Israeli study just claimed that civilians are 61% of airstrike casualties, and even that is a probable undersell) on Hamas, as if Israel was just peacefully minding its own business for the 56 years leading up to Oct 7. "Yes, we're the ones bombing, but it's all their fault. What can we do, stop?" (disclaimer for idiots: Hamas obv bears a significant portion of the blame. What's absurd is Israel totally abdicating any responsibility.) Massive reprisal and collective punishment is indefensible so shift the terms of debate to who's to blame for it. Muddy it all and make everything seems like partisan mudslinging.

There is undoubtedly some level of antisemitism lurking in criticism of Israel - you see it often enough on Twitter - and it should be called out at every turn, tho no one has done more to make that harder than the ADL and aggressive Israel surrogates like Alan Dershowitz by conflating all criticism w/antisemitism while simultaneously embracing legitimate antisemites like evangelical Zionists, Elon Musk, and Viktor Orban for tactical reasons. Also, I never hear any of those people calling out the kind of virulent anti-Palestinian racism you find frequently on Twitter as well as the comment section of any Times of Israel, JPost, etc, not to mention the numerous Jewish supremacists in the Knesset.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
chava said:
Hello. I am cancelled, remember?
Click to expand...
Buddy how are you "canceled"? Were you banned or penalized or in any other way punished? You posted a bunch of bad and ignorant takes and got called out on them.

Ppl proclaiming "I've been canceled" when they get called on bullshit might the single most tiresome trope in current social media. No one deplatformed you. Being held responsible for things you say /= cancelation.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
padraig (u.s.) said:
The campus antisemitism is so goddamn dumb btw. No one can point to any actual genocidal claims so the claim is that "what you're saying means what we say it does rather than what you say it does so it's genocidal bc we said so". I.e. "from the river to sea" (a phrase which is literally in Likud's founding charter btw) is taken to mean kill all the Jews rather than full equality for Palestinians, and "globalize the intifada" is taken to mean kill everyone rather than global solidarity in resistance. It's a strategy to reframe the terms of debate bc influential hasbara types understand the invasion and bombing are essentially indefensible on their own terms. One of the easiest and clearest ways to see this is that the term intifada has existed in popular consciousness for almost 40 years and only started being associated with genocide a couple weeks ago.

It's the same as the gaslighting tactic of blaming 100% of the destruction and death (an Israeli study just claimed that civilians are 61% of airstrike casualties, and even that is a probable undersell) on Hamas, as if Israel was just peacefully minding its own business for the 56 years leading up to Oct 7. "Yes, we're the ones bombing, but it's all their fault. What can we do, stop?" (disclaimer for idiots: Hamas obv bears a significant portion of the blame. What's absurd is Israel totally abdicating any responsibility.) Massive reprisal and collective punishment is indefensible so shift the terms of debate to who's to blame for it. Muddy it all and make everything seems like partisan mudslinging.

There is undoubtedly some level of antisemitism lurking in criticism of Israel - you see it often enough on Twitter - and it should be called out at every turn, tho no one has done more to make that harder than the ADL and aggressive Israel surrogates like Alan Dershowitz by conflating all criticism w/antisemitism while simultaneously embracing legitimate antisemites like evangelical Zionists, Elon Musk, and Viktor Orban for tactical reasons. Also, I never hear any of those people calling out the kind of virulent anti-Palestinian racism you find frequently on Twitter as well as the comment section of any Times of Israel, JPost, etc, not to mention the numerous Jewish supremacists in the Knesset.
Click to expand...
UPenn's president has resigned now anyway:

www.bbc.com

UPenn students grapple with free speech and antisemitism

UPenn's president has resigned but campus debate over how to talk about the Israel-Gaza war goes on.
www.bbc.com

(Also, I know the BBC has attracted a lot of criticism for its coverage of the current war - giving names and photos of Israeli victims while reporting bare statistics on Palestinian ones, for instance - but bless them for having two journalists, one named 'Iqbal' and the other 'Lederman' - write that piece.)
 
chava

chava

Well-known member
padraig (u.s.) said:
Buddy how are you "canceled"? Were you banned or penalized or in any other way punished? You posted a bunch of bad and ignorant takes and got called out on them.

Ppl proclaiming "I've been canceled" when they get called on bullshit might the single most tiresome trope in current social media. No one deplatformed you. Being held responsible for things you say /= cancelation.
Click to expand...
it was a joke
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
One example, of many, to illustrate the double standards over meaning

intifada and from the river to the sea are "proxies" for genocide, i.e. the standard campus genocide claim


now go to the comments here and see the many responses claiming that "them" means Hamas rather than Palestinians. see also: any defense of Israeli govt language like animals, monsters, Amalek etc.


So the line is basically "your statements are implicitly genocidal bc we say so. Our explicitly genocidal statements are not genocidal bc we say so."

I personally have hesitated to use "genocide" so far (that will change if Palestinians begin starving to death en masse) specifically bc you're on much firmer ground talking about apartheid and ethnic cleansing, but what is undeniable is that there has been a veritable river of genocidal language from Israeli politicians over the last two months.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Or if you want another example of an actual antisemite exploiting Jewish suffering to further her own agenda look no further than Elise Stefanik, another endorser of Great Replacement Theory nonsense
www.nbcnews.com

Stefanik's echo of 'great replacement' rhetoric offers clues to her national ambitions — and her changing district

A racist shooting in Buffalo, New York, has increased scrutiny on Republicans, particularly Stefanik, who have echoed the kind of white nationalist theory embraced by the suspect.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Mr. Tea said:
I'm not even going to bother clicking the link because I can tell that's a going to be a grotesque distortion of what's actually happening there.
Click to expand...

padraig (u.s.) said:
The campus antisemitism is so goddamn dumb btw. No one can point to any actual genocidal claims so the claim is that "what you're saying means what we say it does rather than what you say it does so it's genocidal bc we said so". I.e. "from the river to sea" (a phrase which is literally in Likud's founding charter btw) is taken to mean kill all the Jews rather than full equality for Palestinians, and "globalize the intifada" is taken to mean kill everyone rather than global solidarity in resistance. It's a strategy to reframe the terms of debate bc influential hasbara types understand the invasion and bombing are essentially indefensible on their own terms. One of the easiest and clearest ways to see this is that the term intifada has existed in popular consciousness for almost 40 years and only started being associated with genocide a couple weeks ago.
Click to expand...

@mixed_biscuits How do you feel about the fact that, to the extent that there are genuinely antisemitic elements in the anti-Zionist movement (which there undeniably are, and no honest person would say otherwise), this is in large part your fault for deliberately mischaracterizing all criticism of Israel as 'antisemitic' or even 'genocidal in intent'? Or perhaps you like it this way, so you can say "Well I may be a gigantic racist but my opponents are racists too, so it evens out."

(To be clear, the 'you' in 'your fault' means 'people who share your opinions' - but it means you, as well.)
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
padraig (u.s.) said:
The campus antisemitism is so goddamn dumb btw. No one can point to any actual genocidal claims so the claim is that "what you're saying means what we say it does rather than what you say it does so it's genocidal bc we said so". I.e. "from the river to sea" (a phrase which is literally in Likud's founding charter btw) is taken to mean kill all the Jews rather than full equality for Palestinians, and "globalize the intifada" is taken to mean kill everyone rather than global solidarity in resistance.
Click to expand...
It doesn't work like this: anyone who is halfway progressive knows that there are no objective connotations to these terms; what matters is how they are received by those who are likely to be offended by them...that's why previously uncharged racialist terminology begins to acquire felt racist undertones because of evolution in their use. If Jews find them offensive then they are offensive. Period.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
padraig (u.s.) said:
One example, of many, to illustrate the double standards over meaning

intifada and from the river to the sea are "proxies" for genocide, i.e. the standard campus genocide claim
Click to expand...
The problem for your weaselly take - as can be seen in the Ben Shapiro Oxford Union debate - is that the same people who are saying "from the river to the sea" are also saying that all of Palestine is occupied so, yes, that phrase is tainted with overt genocidal ambition.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Mr. Tea said:
@mixed_biscuits How do you feel about the fact that, to the extent that there are genuinely antisemitic elements in the anti-Zionist movement (which there undeniably are, and no honest person would say otherwise), this is in large part your fault for deliberately mischaracterizing all criticism of Israel as 'antisemitic' or even 'genocidal in intent'? Or perhaps you like it this way, so you can say "Well I may be a gigantic racist but my opponents are racists too, so it evens out."

(To be clear, the 'you' in 'your fault' means 'people who share your opinions' - but it means you, as well.)
Click to expand...
I think you've got yourself into a bit of a muddle there.
 
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