The Feminine Perspective against the Manosphere
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malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
I have never used it to mean anything other than a feminine man. If you're using it describe something additional, that's your problem.
.
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
No my use of the term "lesbian" just means a man who loves a woman like a woman does.
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
Also let me add that the idea that we don't know what behaviors count as masculine and feminine is ridiculous and contrary to common experience and practice. But it's also dangerous because the manosphere is selling men on a picture of ultra-traditional hyper-masculinity that really does block out femininity. Femininity represents a real alternative to the manosphere, and none of you have provided your own alternative.
And I did give criteria for what counts as masculine and feminine: the masculine is the self, the feminine is the other.
And I did give criteria for what counts as masculine and feminine: the masculine is the self, the feminine is the other.
ghost
Well-known member
I can't believe I'm still getting baited but there's nothing "traditional" about hyper-masculinity. It's a modernist form of fundamentalism, couldn't have existed before the industrial revolution.
It's bizarre and sinister that reifying a horrifying conception of masculinity is somehow part of your grand scheme.
Signing off from this thread, I agree that nothing can be done about this one.
It's bizarre and sinister that reifying a horrifying conception of masculinity is somehow part of your grand scheme.
Signing off from this thread, I agree that nothing can be done about this one.
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
I don't see how I'm "reifying" hypermasculinity. Hypermasculinity is a concrete attitude held by actual men. I recognize that hypermasculinity exists out there in society. How is that "bizarre and sinsiter"? You guys realize that we can't fight hypermasculinity unless we accept its real existence, right?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Comes originally from prison culture, doesn't it? Or has a very strong connotation of that sort, anyway.
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
If you really care about this sort of thing, just replace all instances of the word "sissy" with the phrase "Feminine man". It's easy!
And just to remind you all, for all the talk about my argument resting on false premises, no one has said what the particular false premises were.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Alrite, I've been sucked in one last time bc this absolute untruth can't just stand
This dude clearly means well, so let me try one last time to get thru
Reducing all human culture - or more accurately, behavior (culture being a byproduct of behavior) - to masculine or feminine. That is your false premise. You say you're not doing that, but literally in the same post you're including the totality of human culture in either masculinity or the negation of masculinity (which you call femininity). Anytime anyone questions that premise or offers counterexamples you say "your examples don't count bc they don't fit my arbitrary parameters" (but yunno, expressed in abstruse PhD word salad). While you yourself otoh don't have to give any precise definitions or criteria, just handwave "society" or x other abstraction.
Anyone anywhere who rejects or subverts or critiques (you don't even need to subvert them! just be aware of and try to refute the toxic elements) the restrictions of "traditional" gender constructs and roles in any way is resisting the patriarchy. Those are the specific behaviors you keep demanding. It doesn't require rejecting traditional masculinity (or femininity) either, unless you specifically define traditional masculinity as only the toxic elements thereof - in which case you've created a tautology, i.e "the things that are bad are bad bc I dislike them and I dislike them bc they're bad". There are more ways in heaven and earth to resist the patriarchy than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
That's as simple and direct as I can make it. If you can't grasp that critique, well, I tried.
This dude clearly means well, so let me try one last time to get thru
Multiple different people have directly said it multiple times
Reducing all human culture - or more accurately, behavior (culture being a byproduct of behavior) - to masculine or feminine. That is your false premise. You say you're not doing that, but literally in the same post you're including the totality of human culture in either masculinity or the negation of masculinity (which you call femininity). Anytime anyone questions that premise or offers counterexamples you say "your examples don't count bc they don't fit my arbitrary parameters" (but yunno, expressed in abstruse PhD word salad). While you yourself otoh don't have to give any precise definitions or criteria, just handwave "society" or x other abstraction.
Anyone anywhere who rejects or subverts or critiques (you don't even need to subvert them! just be aware of and try to refute the toxic elements) the restrictions of "traditional" gender constructs and roles in any way is resisting the patriarchy. Those are the specific behaviors you keep demanding. It doesn't require rejecting traditional masculinity (or femininity) either, unless you specifically define traditional masculinity as only the toxic elements thereof - in which case you've created a tautology, i.e "the things that are bad are bad bc I dislike them and I dislike them bc they're bad". There are more ways in heaven and earth to resist the patriarchy than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
That's as simple and direct as I can make it. If you can't grasp that critique, well, I tried.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Btw just wanna note that there's an episode of Star Trek TNG from ~30 years ago where they go to a planet of non-binary - or perhaps agender would be a better word - people that has clearer and better take on gender identity than this jumbled reductionist mess of a theory (luke is right, fancy books really are contraindicated for some people).
ST in general has a consistently strong and fluid take on gender identity (nb: there's problem some horrible counterexample I'm forgetting), unsurprising for perhaps the original woke cultural product.
ST in general has a consistently strong and fluid take on gender identity (nb: there's problem some horrible counterexample I'm forgetting), unsurprising for perhaps the original woke cultural product.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
It's like trying to argue with a (notionally) progressive mixed_biscuits, isn't it?
ghost
Well-known member
Since the associations don't matter at all, and there's no problem with the word replacement, I'll be referring to you from here out as "male heterosexual man."
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I know but he clearly means well so I thought, why not try one last time
But yes by all means pisstake away I'm pretty sure this one is unreachable
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I know right that was particularly crazy, from someone who's like entire thing is the semiotics of gender
"Society determines the significance and meaning of all cultural output, except in my case where I can use terms to mean whatever I want and any reader should just ignore their commonly understood meanings and connotations"
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
No one gave counterexamples. No one gave criteria or definitions different from mine. How do you fight the patriarchy? That is the point of this thread. Not silly infighting.
I never reduced all behavior to gendered behavior. I said that mainstream patriarchal culture tends to depict itself as the only game in town, but this is a deception. What I said was, I know no non-gendered behavior that fights the patriarchy. No one provided any examples of such non-gendered behavior.
Again, I never said fighting the patriarchy requires rejecting traditional gender roles. I said rejecting traditional gender roles is an effective way of fighting the patriarchy. If you agree that defying traditional gender roles and men acting feminine succeed in fighting the patriarchy, then you agree with me. If not, then please provide a critique. Tell us why men acting feminine fails to fight the patriarchy. Otherwise, there's no disagreement. Depictions of my view as reductionist are merely uncharitable.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
malelesbian
Femboyism IS feminism.
So you're denying that I am feminine. Very charitable. /s Notice how you're so eager to eliminate femininity from my personality? Guess its just more patriarchal repression...
Im still waiting for this fabled, mythical non-gendered behavior that fights the patriarchy. Since no one has given any examples, I'll keep waiting.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Have a wank while watching some really right-on feminist porn.