The (lack of the) Mysterious

[nomadthethird]

I think what's interesting about our current position, is that culturally, you can appropriate whatever you like and take it on as something that 'for you' is valid, we in the (and I know it doens't fully apply but hey) rational, scientific, west use culture as a formless base on which you can pick and choose what you like, and science sits untouched at the top. So you can be into american indian culture and pop idol without any clashes. You couldn't be (authentically) simply both a tibetan monk and an african tribesman, but with mediation from western cultural relativism you can dip your toes into all those waters and more. The problem is there isn't any 'authentic' cultural experience anymore, that is, opera is just fat people singing and a native dance is just people bashing drums, the sublime isn't there anymore, it all becomes twee and naive (when engaged in by people who truly beleive in it as viewed from the outside).

So culture becomes not important in looking for answers and becomes about some sort of personality/lifestyle choice, when culture really in many ways is authentically about the abscence of choice, or a shared choice of a community which evolves over time.

I think this is basically correct but also somewhat of an oversimplification. I don't think we lack "culture" or a coherent one that binds people together. I just think we lack indigenous culture(s) plural as we move more towards a global culture. There are bad things about this but there are good things about it.

 

[grizzleb]

I think this is basically correct but also somewhat of an oversimplification. I don't think we lack "culture" or a coherent one that binds people together. I just think we lack indigenous culture(s) plural as we move more towards a global culture. There are bad things about this but there are good things about it.

Yeah totally, I was trying to think that out more than anything else. I mean, I don't think it's all bad at all, just interesting how polymorphous culture is nowadays. The relationship between inauthenticity/authenticity is a pernickety one too.

You could argue the person who reads books about native indian american culture, owns a dream catcher (heh) etc is more authentically dedicated/appreciative of that culture than the people who are born into it who don't really think about it at all!

 

[mistersloane]

I tried writing down my dreams once. But multiple plane crashes, Hitler still being alive, a woman who can turn into a wheelbarrow at will. loads of fictional records (I still need to hear "Spiderman Goes Mad" by Prince Jammy) and endless trawls through massive office complexes / embassies didn't really bond into anything constructive for me. Lucid dreaming sounds like fun though, do you actually get physical sensations when you do it?

Um good question, cant really remember? I remember doing all the things you shouldn't do - tried to kill myself, (woke up), burnt down my dream house, sacked my Guardian Angel. I dunno why I stopped it actually, I had a whale of a time. I was reading AJJ Ratcliff's History of Dreams at the time, and writing down all mine. I think cos I was concentrating on them so much during the day that it just naturally passes that you'll be more aware of being in the dream when you're asleep.

A good tip is to have a mnemonic so you realise you're dreaming - i.e if you take a lick of salt before you go to bed, chances are at some point in the dream you'll be thirsty, and then you remember that you had the lick of salt, and suddenly you realise you're dreaming. It's really beautiful.

 

[nomadthethird]

Interpret this!

I had a dream after reading this really great queer theory book with a chapter about necrophilia that I was in this part of a lab in the zinc mine where my father used to work, but as soon as you got underground, it blended into the Metropolitan Museum of Art. There were mummies there on display, with those really nice gallery lights shining on them.

Anyway, at a certain point, the "guide" I was with gave us all a piece of a mummy which we all ate and I remember very distinctly how realistic the texture was and the taste. I could feel the fibers that had made up the hard shell of some kind of wrapping, which had long since fused with the dead tissues, disintegrating in my mouth.

So really it was about eating dead people instead of sleeping with them, but still pretty wacked out especially because it was so vivid I can still remember the whole thing like it was a film I was in.

I don't know if the ancient Egyptians believed in eating the dead. Maybe I saw that on the History channel or something. Or on a Sun Ra film.

I notice that if I eat weird things before I fall asleep sometimes I get bad dreams.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I notice that if I eat weird things..

What, like dead Egyptians?

 

[pattycakes_]

if you dont have any dead egyptians lying around, some nice old stinky blue cheese can work as a decent alternative

 

[zhao]

funny how people get defensive and personally worked up (victor vaughn tries to attack my personality, nomad with her usual reductivist psych and character assassination, Tea egging her on, Padraig with the insults, etc) when i say a simple think like modern society has lost rich and wonderful dimensions of life, and that this loss has to do with the privileging of rationality since the Enlightenment in Europe and the suppression of spiritualist world views.

none of what i said is new, many thinkers like the Frankfurt School and the Situationists, etc, etc, have said things along these lines, that "modern life" lacks a sense of mystery. these notions are pretty common place in the critical tradition.

I could say that Western rationalism has fueled your education, your profession, the laptop you chatter away on, your DJ gigs, your entire existence as a self-described "urban nomad", and on & on, but what's the point? you are all the anarchopunk bands I grew up with, selling vinyl to pay for gasoline so you can tour around & shout about who much you hate consumerism and car culture, only in a different context with different things to shout about and different things to sell.

dissapointed to see this rudimentarily falty logic coming from you. according to this, if someone has a job he can not criticize capitalism. pure rubbish.

I'm quite happy to be into science, actually, and so are most of the people I know who study or teach or work in a scientific field. if anything, science opens up your imagination to limitless possibilities. which is why it's especially ironic that you think it does the opposite.

I wonder if you've ever been to a place where people don't believe in science. where having sex with virgins is supposed to be a cure for AIDS, for example. or simply to place where people actually are impoverished.

you falsely simplify my stance as "against science".

and predictably (not to mention borishly) you start with the Vigin Cure for Aids to demonstrate the backwardsness of superstitious society, insinuating that a close connection with a spirit world can pretty much lead to nothing but misery.

typical western conceit born of ignorance and fear.

you've been to Mexico, and i don't think you can deny (or maybe you can) that the spiritual traditions there make life very colourful, rich, and full of wonder. in ways that are lost in Strip Mall Culture. i'm sure there are some bad things about these older belief systems too, but i am addressing the good things in this thread, which are IMO largely neglected in "progressive" anti-spiritual doctrine.

Alienation and Animism

"Animism is spontaneous, the ‘natural’ way of thinking for humans: all humans began as animistic children and for most of human evolutionary history would have grown into animistic adults. It requires sustained, prolonged and pervasive formal education to ‘overwrite’ animistic thinking with the rationalistic objectivity typical of the modern world. It is this learned abstraction that creates alienation – humans are no longer embedded in a world of social relations but become estranged, adrift in a world of indifferent things."

this is indeed interesting. thanks for posting. but of course nomad tries to dismiss it as "unscientific". what a bore.

What should i do in my life practically to move more towards the model you describe. I am genuinely curious to see what i behind all the general poetic hyperbole.

well this thread was not intended as 12 Steps To Introduce A Sense of Wonder and Mystery In Your Life, but that is of course a valid question. it's difficult in this day and age, where all mystery has been sucked out by compartmentalization or commodified, relegated to the area of "entertainment", and rendered impotent, but maybe:

bring back more ritual
go about life and fun with more of a trickster mentality
dress up as demons not on holloween
do inexplicable things without explanation
flash mobs
improvised music outside of concert halls
spontaneous dancing in public places
unplanned concerts
dadaist crazy shit
weird public sculptures
unofficial performance art
creativity outside official channels...

One example that sticks in my mind is how the Dahomey (I think) had more equal (if different) social roles for women int eh 16th century than many European countries several centuries later. Once it became a full-on raiding and slaving state, this all went to shit.

i have mentioned similar things before, in particular a letter from a first wave German collonialist in Africa to Europe saying

these people are so primitive, the leaders consult their women on major decisions!

which was of course seen as an attempt on my part to paint a fantastic African Utopia.

no, i am aware of the bad things about traditional cultures, all I'm saying is that there are ALSO amazing riches about them that modern life has lost (and practices more "advanced" than current thinking) -- and that these are not talked about nearly as much as the "evils of superstition".

and one of my fundamentalist beliefs is that science, as it advances, is absolutely not mutually exclusive with a spiritualist world view. many things such as ancient teachings on the interconnectedness of all things are being "proven" in quantum mechanics. etc.
jesus i'm spending way too much time on this.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

according to this, if someone has a job he can not criticize capitalism.

sure, but if that someone is an investment banker than their criticisms ring hollow &, further, don't make much sense. if you follow. or, if you don't - you are directly & heavily invested in the culture you rail against. & no one's forcing you to be either.

criticize all you want, just don't expect people to take you seriously when you do. have cake, eat it too, can't do both, etc

you start with the Vigin Cure for Aids to demonstrate the backwardsness of superstitious society, insinuating that a close connection with a spirit world can pretty much lead to nothing but misery.

no, that was only an example to counter your romanticization of "non-rational" cultures. there are, again, positives & negatives associated with each belief system.

you've been to Mexico, and i don't think you can deny (or maybe you can) that the spiritual traditions there make life very colourful, rich, and full of wonder.

there are many things there that make life colorful and rich. some of them are spiritual traditions. there are many things there that make life oppressive and awful. some of them are spiritual traditions.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

bring back more ritual...

well, yes, clearly having an unsanctioned dadaist dance party outside the Tate Modern would reintroduce the mysterious into our lives.

 

[nomadthethird]

Since when is it an "insult" to suggest or admit that things from the past affect us? I'm nothing but forthright about my own "issues", for fuck's sake.

It's stuff like this that's just...oh dear:

typical western conceit born of ignorance and fear.

Huh?

Fear of what? Your cheesy insistence that dressing up in costumes is going to enrich our lives?

All of these people who insist that the only way to "happiness" or spiritual nirvana or whatever, utopia, is the further aestheticization of everyday life are just full of it. And by "it" I mean narcissism.

Lots of leftists do it. Zhao isn't the only one, even though, yeah, I realize the commies wouldn't probably think of him as one of theirs. But he's still on the spectrum hovering somewhere near anarchopunk.

How about using your time and money to help AIDS orphans and shutting the fuck up for a second until you do. Get a real project, and by real project I mean one that's not about making yourself full of "wonder" and childlike glee, but one that's about really making the world a better place for those who are underprivileged (and not exoticizing their miserable lives or telling them what revolution they should want to have because you think they should want it).

 

[zhao]

Fear of what?

the irrational, non-rational, or what you perceive as that.

europe only emerged from the horrid backwards ways a few hundred years ago. and this fear of "superstitions" largely stems from that.

 

[Pestario]

I'd agree re. lucid dreaming all the time. I wonder if you'd be tired if you did it constantly? Not switching your brane off.

I got a bit bored with it tbh - all I used to do was fly around and then shag someone.

I spent about a month trying to lucid dream and after a while I did have a few dreams where it felt like I had control but I had this sneaking suspicion that I was just dreaming that I was lucid dreaming. Is that possible? How would you tell the difference?

btw I did fly and shag people most of the time ha ha

 

[nomadthethird]

the irrational, non-rational, or what you perceive as that.

europe only emerged from the horrid backwards ways a few hundred years ago. and this fear of "superstitions" largely stems from that.

For fuck's sake, the Catholic Church still owns a whole city over there that's the wealthiest nation in the world.

Superstition is alive and well in the West.

If there's anything to be "afraid" of, we've got it in our own backyard.

You make no sense. You are not making a coherent argument.

 

[Mr. Tea]

when i say a simple think like modern society has lost rich and wonderful dimensions of life, and that this loss has to do with the privileging of rationality since the Enlightenment in Europe and the suppression of spiritualist world views.

You know what I think is a rich and wonderful dimension of life? The Internet. No, seriously, for all the anime rape porn and 4chan and pointless MySpace pages and recruitment sites for white power dickheads and jihadis and whatnot, there's a universe of interesting, worthwhile stuff that most people would never have come across otherwise. Places like (at the risk of sounding corny) Dissensus. If "we" (meaning the developed world, "the West" or whatever) have lost things, it's only fair to recognise that we're gained things too, right? Culture doesn't have to be steeped in archaic tradition to have worth, you know.

And as others have pointed out, you're as intimately plugged into this world as anyone here. Maybe that's why you get so worked up about it: your po-mo insistence on having it both ways. Yet when we really get down to it, I think it's this insistence that is perhaps the most "Western" syndrome of all; the idea of having lost something immensely precious, which those lucky impoverished* spiritual people retain, and wanting to get back to it while at the same time hanging on to your blog and your laptop and your iPhone and your turntables...I know you were born in China but I think if someone were to slice you down the middle you'd have "Made in L.A." printed all the way through you like a piece of souvenir candy.

none of what i said is new, many thinkers like the Frankfurt School and the Situationists, etc, etc, have said things along these lines, that "modern life" lacks a sense of mystery. these notions are pretty common place in the critical tradition.

As I said in my first post in this thread, mystery is where you find it. There's no reason why anyone's life should be bereft of mystery if they have any sense of poetry in them at all. I still think lightning is cool as fuck even though I have a vague idea that it's caused by air currents and electric charge buildups, rather than because the sky god is angry. And I'm sorry but belief in electrons is not "equivalent" or "complimentary" to belief in sky gods. When you say "mystery" meaning "belief in spirits and unseen forces", I think you're in danger of confusing mystery with ignorance.


*Yes, before you say it, there may still be small groups of people here and there who live in 'original affluence', I'm not denying or dismissing it. But they're hugely outnumbered by people who live in slums and decaying townships.

 

[baboon2004]

As I said in my first post in this thread, mystery is where you find it. There's no reason why anyone's life should be bereft of mystery if they have any sense of poetry in them at all. I still think lightning is cool as fuck even though I have a vague idea that it's caused by air currents and electric charge buildups, rather than because the sky god is angry. .

Indeed. I think it's reductive of humans' capacity to hold two ideas simultaneously (to be reductive, the 'mystical' and the 'scientific'), to suggest otherwise. That's one of the great things about being human, to see a thing from several entirely different perspectives, and not necessarily think them contradictory.

I think the popular image of the ovelry- rationalist, unimaginative scientist has a lot to answer for. It's a stereotype as any other.

And what about (to take a random example) Ghanaian physicists, for example - where do they fit into this debate?

 

[scottdisco]

Indeed. I think it's reductive of humans' capacity to hold two ideas simultaneously (to be reductive, the 'mystical' and the 'scientific'), to suggest otherwise. That's one of the great things about being human, to see a thing from several entirely different perspectives, and not necessarily think them contradictory.

I think the popular image of the ovelry- rationalist, unimaginative scientist has a lot to answer for. It's a stereotype as any other.

And what about (to take a random example) Ghanaian physicists, for example - where do they fit into this debate?

Do I contradict myself?
Very well, then, I contradict myself;
(I am large—I contain multitudes.)

- Whitman

 

[nomadthethird]

And what about (to take a random example) Ghanaian physicists, for example - where do they fit into this debate?

Thank you! Exactly.

Lydia Makhubu comes to mind.

 

[grizzleb]

Thank you! Exactly.

Lydia Makhubu comes to mind.

They've been blinded, they don't appreciate the beauty of female circumcision and witch hunts.

 

[zhao]

again, no one is saying scientists lack imagination. and no one said there are no scientists in Indonesia or Malawi. you are putting words in my mouth.

what i have been saying is modern society with its rationalist bias lacks many kinds of mystery and sense of wonder found in traditional cultures.

the worlds described by Salmon Rushdie, Italo Calvino, Gabriel García Márquez, for instance. or the films of Apichatpong Weerasethakuls. i wish Chaotropic would relate more of his first hand experiences in Mongolia, Thailand, the Amazons. there are wonderful things about these different world views (as well as not so wonderful or downright fucked up).

i never said everything about life in these cultures is preferable to ours. all I'm saying is that there is a richness, a mystical dimension which is lost to us.

 

[grizzleb]

again, no one is saying scientists lack imagination. and no one said there are no scientists in Indonesia or Malawi. you are putting words in my mouth.

what i have been saying is modern society with its rationalist bias lacks many kinds of mystery and sense of wonder found in traditional cultures.

the worlds described by Salmon Rushdie, Italo Calvino, Gabriel García Márquez, for instance. or the films of Apichatpong Weerasethakuls. i wish Chaotropic would relate more of his first hand experiences in Mongolia, Thailand, the Amazons. there are wonderful things about these different world views (as well as not so wonderful or downright fucked up).

i never said everything about life in these cultures is preferable to ours. all I'm saying is that there is a richness, a mystical dimension which is lost to us.

I'd say that that mysterious quality of other cultures is one ascribed by you from the outside, ignoring the short lives and drudgery that often occurs in such places. And that that mysteriousness/romance is alive in the west, precisley through those authors you namecheck. Calvino, Marquez et al are truly where that romance/mystery lies.