mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
I thought of the dormouse at the Tea Party, genius line swears.
The (lack of the) Mysterious
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I thought of the dormouse at the Tea Party, genius line swears.
CHAOTROPIC
on account
I think it's interesting that the more your try & nail down what's possible, the more it seems to squirm & twist away in the form of monsters, wonders, prodigies & anomalies. The interesting thing about actively searching for the anomalous, is you find it everywhere. People see strange things all the time. A zoologist can visit an area like the Kerinci highland jungle in Sumatra & see nothing but Muslim villages, tea plantations, &, maybe tigers. But the area is hopping with weird shit. I like to remain porous.
It's like, a psychiatrist burrows around & tries to map the topography of the mind. I'm trying to do the same with, what, mind in the world? Or dreams in the world. Which isn't to say that people don't really see stuff. Rather, the point isn't to find out if something is true or not, but to catalogue it, & hopefully, partake in it. It's another anomalous datapoint. Sahar the Weretiger is just as much an anomaly in Kerinci as he would be here.
Psychogeography is ...what ... a study of the resonances of a place, beyond the moment, beyond 'things'? I think cryptozoology does the same kindof thing. So I think you could call it 'psychozoology' & wouldn't be stretching the metaphor too far. I haven't written up my experiences yet because I fucking hate travelogues. Blah blah blah, holiday rubbish. The fact is, most of the people I talk to who really see weird shit, pygmy, herdsman, guide, they're just as shellshocked as me. When my team had a sighting of the Orang Pendek this year, Sahar the weretiger _cried for twenty minutes_.
Zhao, I think a zoology background might actually get in the way. The two guys who usually go with me, one is a naturalist, former zookeeper & professional cryptozoologist, the other is an astrophysics PhD & adventurer who spent two months of last year on holiday in Afghanistan. I studied architecture at Cambridge, wrestled for ten years & now work as a science writer & make dreadful music that everybody on this board would hate.
It's like, a psychiatrist burrows around & tries to map the topography of the mind. I'm trying to do the same with, what, mind in the world? Or dreams in the world. Which isn't to say that people don't really see stuff. Rather, the point isn't to find out if something is true or not, but to catalogue it, & hopefully, partake in it. It's another anomalous datapoint. Sahar the Weretiger is just as much an anomaly in Kerinci as he would be here.
Psychogeography is ...what ... a study of the resonances of a place, beyond the moment, beyond 'things'? I think cryptozoology does the same kindof thing. So I think you could call it 'psychozoology' & wouldn't be stretching the metaphor too far. I haven't written up my experiences yet because I fucking hate travelogues. Blah blah blah, holiday rubbish. The fact is, most of the people I talk to who really see weird shit, pygmy, herdsman, guide, they're just as shellshocked as me. When my team had a sighting of the Orang Pendek this year, Sahar the weretiger _cried for twenty minutes_.
Zhao, I think a zoology background might actually get in the way. The two guys who usually go with me, one is a naturalist, former zookeeper & professional cryptozoologist, the other is an astrophysics PhD & adventurer who spent two months of last year on holiday in Afghanistan. I studied architecture at Cambridge, wrestled for ten years & now work as a science writer & make dreadful music that everybody on this board would hate.
mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
except mistersloane, wonk_vitesse and black tulip, certainly.
CHAOTROPIC
on account
particular like what you say about the point not being "whether something is empirically true or not", but more to partake in the experience and the phenomenon.
and it is true anomalies are everywhere, much more than most people would like to admit, because they are disruptive of the neat little systems they have constructed.
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someone upthread (padraig?) said
i am only trying to make things a bit more balanced and point out some of the wonderful things about mysticism in some traditional cultures. and of course this makes me, in your eyes, automatically an "orientalist" or "fake new age hippie".
whatever. this particular conversation grows tedius.
i know what i know. you don't believe me? why that is perfectly fine.
but i do hope someday sometime somewhere, Padraig, Tea, Nomad, something, some experience, undeniably outside of your world view, crosses your path. and i hope that you will be open minded and "porous" enough to notice and recognize it for what it is.
make fun all you want, your cynical sarcasm is commonplace and predictable.
(from memory)
i see in many theorists' work an impulse to move away from stale rational heirarchical systems as they have been erected in the past few hundred years, i see a search for other logics, other modes of being beyond the ones proscribed by modern society. there is a connection here to the other world views which are more fluid and less cut and dry that i am talking about. whether you see it or not is not my problem.
one day i will embark on a journey
but i think it started the day i was born.
and all most people in the west want to do, as you lot have clearly demonstrated, is talk about the evils of "backwards", "spiritualist", "superstitious" cultures.
i am only trying to make things a bit more balanced and point out some of the wonderful things about mysticism in some traditional cultures. and of course this makes me, in your eyes, automatically an "orientalist" or "fake new age hippie".
whatever. this particular conversation grows tedius.
i know what i know. you don't believe me? why that is perfectly fine.
but i do hope someday sometime somewhere, Padraig, Tea, Nomad, something, some experience, undeniably outside of your world view, crosses your path. and i hope that you will be open minded and "porous" enough to notice and recognize it for what it is.
make fun all you want, your cynical sarcasm is commonplace and predictable.
(from memory)
i see in many theorists' work an impulse to move away from stale rational heirarchical systems as they have been erected in the past few hundred years, i see a search for other logics, other modes of being beyond the ones proscribed by modern society. there is a connection here to the other world views which are more fluid and less cut and dry that i am talking about. whether you see it or not is not my problem.
one day i will embark on a journey
but i think it started the day i was born.
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someone upthread (padraig?) said
and all most people in the west want to do, as you lot have clearly demonstrated, is talk about the evils of "backwards", "spiritualist", "superstitious" cultures.
i am only trying to make things a bit more balanced and point out some of the wonderful things about mysticism in some traditional cultures. and of course this makes me, in your eyes, automatically an "orientalist" or "fake new age hippie".
whatever. this particular conversation grows tedius.
i know what i know. you don't believe me? why that is perfectly fine.
but i do hope someday sometime somewhere, Padraig, Tea, Nomad, something, some experience, undeniably outside of your world view, crosses your path. and i hope that you will be open minded and "porous" enough to notice and recognize it for what it is.
make fun all you want, your cynical sarcasm is commonplace and predictable.
(from memory)
i see in many theorists' work an impulse to move away from stale rational heirarchical systems as they have been erected in the past few hundred years, i see a search for other logics, other modes of being beyond the ones proscribed by modern society. there is a connection here to the other world views which are more fluid and less cut and dry that i am talking about. whether you see it or not is not my problem.
one day i will embark on a journey
but i think it started the day i was born.
these are not balanced views, not being funny, but the people you accuse of cynicism etc, well they're the people who are trying to unravel, pull away from your polarisation and get to the more balanced views
I do kind of agree with you about mystery but i prefer lots of little mysteries, instead of great big mystery, its important to keep mysterious, it's boring to know everything, have an explantion for everything as some things just are, strange and chaotic and coincidental and thats pretty wonderful, and less neurotic than having to keep a check on them.
Also i find your noble savage goes spiritual kinda views paranoid and borderline racist like other ppl on this board, again they're hopeless stereotypes which denigrate for your own needs- also what are you really going to do about this, what is your journey, actually?
is it getting some books attending seminars and doing some laptop mixing or something, is this how you're improving this situation? Whats so mysterious about you?
These are weird views on the rational, nomad's point about these things being rational systems rings true, also worth pointing out that one measures a circle, beginning anywhere.
talking of ouspensky who you post a jpg of, ever heard any of gurdjeff's music?
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
How's this for mysterious, then?
"The Bloop is the name given to an ultra-low frequency underwater sound detected by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration several times during the summer of 1997. The source of the sound remains unknown."
Maybe there is in principle an explanation for this, and phenomena like it, that fits into our rational world view. Maybe there isn't and never will be. The former, if never found, is empirically indistinguishable from the latter. I love the idea that there's all this weird shit out there we can't understand or describe, it doesn't bother me at all (though zhao would apparently love to think it does).
Fits nicely into CT's cryptozoology thing, too. To say nothing of getting any self-respecting Cthulhu fan wet at the gills with blasphemous glee...
"The Bloop is the name given to an ultra-low frequency underwater sound detected by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration several times during the summer of 1997. The source of the sound remains unknown."
Maybe there is in principle an explanation for this, and phenomena like it, that fits into our rational world view. Maybe there isn't and never will be. The former, if never found, is empirically indistinguishable from the latter. I love the idea that there's all this weird shit out there we can't understand or describe, it doesn't bother me at all (though zhao would apparently love to think it does).
Fits nicely into CT's cryptozoology thing, too. To say nothing of getting any self-respecting Cthulhu fan wet at the gills with blasphemous glee...
yeah i love the massive piano box set (which are actually performed by a pupil of his), as well as the huge accordian collection (played by him i think). really subtle and beautiful. incidentally i was talking to Ilpo Väisänen quite a while back and he said the accordian CDs were on constant repeat at his home...
CHAOTROPIC
on account
I'm just in the process of renaming my band & - no kidding - 'The Bloop' is right at the top of my list
I'm just in the process of renaming my band & - no kidding - 'The Bloop' is right at the top of my list
got a myspace?
making the observation that life in many traditional cultures are saturated with the mysterious, mystical and occult compared to ours, which in many ways enrich (and in others restrict) life, does not equal exoticism or racism.
the mysterious and occult is the default for alot of americans, not the mysterious and occult you want it seems.
whats a traditional culture i don't understand?
swears
preppy-kei
I like the idea of mystery, I used to to read the Fortean Times and books about "unexplained phenomena" as a kid, loved all that. I think I knew most of it was bullshit, but it was great in terms of being almost like modern-day folktales.
Everyone should have some mystery and magic in their lives: half remembered songs, melancholy/spooky feelings that you can't quite attach to a particular time or person, like grainy, overexposed video playing in your head. I was in the pub at the weekend and heard Fleetwood Mac's "Seven Wonders" over the crummy old stereo in there, and the chiming synth refrain brought back a flood of stuff like this to my mind.
Everyone should have some mystery and magic in their lives: half remembered songs, melancholy/spooky feelings that you can't quite attach to a particular time or person, like grainy, overexposed video playing in your head. I was in the pub at the weekend and heard Fleetwood Mac's "Seven Wonders" over the crummy old stereo in there, and the chiming synth refrain brought back a flood of stuff like this to my mind.
Psychogeography is ...what ... a study of the resonances of a place, beyond the moment, beyond 'things'?
One of the reasons why Psychogeography is interesting is that it “makes strange” our everyday environment, often through the use of already available sources – historical documents, official papers, forgotten biographies - leavened with some personal experience, perhaps input from folklore and myth. You don’t have to go to Asia or Africa to encounter something a bit odd – it’s right on your doorstep – literally. I’ve been to India but I didn’t go on a spiritual quest, I always managed to find what I wanted right here. Bit uncomfortable with the projection of the mysterious onto Asian and African cultures. If you read any anthropological or comparative religious studies they are normally prefaced with accounts of how damaging this type of thinking has been, historically i.e. early Western Indologists projecting all their sexual fears onto Tantric practices – both prejudice and ignorance and part of the colonial power game.
One of the reasons why Psychogeography is interesting is that it “makes strange” our everyday environment, often through the use of already available sources – historical documents, official papers, forgotten biographies - leavened with some personal experience, perhaps input from folklore and myth. You don’t have to go to Asia or Africa to encounter something a bit odd – it’s right on your doorstep – literally. I’ve been to India but I didn’t go on a spiritual quest, I always managed to find what I wanted right here. Bit uncomfortable with the projection of the mysterious onto Asian and African cultures. If you read any anthropological or comparative religious studies they are normally prefaced with accounts of how damaging this type of thinking has been, historically i.e. early Western Indologists projecting all their sexual fears onto Tantric practices – both prejudice and ignorance and part of the colonial power game.
i buy it, it's great its a good read and takes a very fair hand, also covers things well with a historical perspective, dosn't get carried away and has good critical analysis as well as far out ideas.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
making the observation that life in many traditional cultures are saturated with the mysterious, mystical and occult compared to ours, which in many ways enrich (and in others restrict) life, does not equal exoticism or racism.
what do you mean by 'traditional cultures' though? (Edit: sorry, I see mms already asked this). There are cultures based upon tradition in every country in the world - they're just traditional in different ways. You can still find the mysterious, mystical and occult in 'Western' societies if you look (just in different forms), and you can find rationalism and scientific enquiry in 'non-Western' societies. It's not a binary Culture-Nature world. There's tons of mystical folklore in the UK, for example, that lots of people still take notice of. Why do you think Stonehenge gets so many visitors? And certain forms of religion have to enter into this debate too, no? There's little more mysterious and mystical than something like speaking in tongues, after all... hell, mainstream religion is based upon folklore, and still has a pretty big following in the US.... (less so in the UK, must be said)
Contingent facts about the world led to Europe discovering gunpowder first etc, and therefore being able to exercise political and economic hegemony over the rest of the world, stymying African industrial development. Given different contingencies, Africa could have had the industrial revolution first (the continent had certainly done a lot of the groundwork by the time the Europeans fucked it all up), and it could have instantiated itself as the seat of the Rational, looking down upon Europeans with their essentialist Nature attributes and tales of Druids and magic stones. But that wouldn't mean that the African sense of the mysterious, mystical and occult would somehow be expunged from history - it would just co-exist in some form alongside science. As numerous people have said, there's not this neat separation between Science and the Mystical, between Culture and Nature. That's just colonial rhetoric that still informs many Westerners' thinking today about the 'backward' nature of the rest of the world, and allows the West to claim that AIDS became epidemic in Africa due to some supposed essential difference of Africans, and not because the Reagan administration delayed telling Africa about the imminent pandemic in the early 80s, until HIV cases had already reached critical mass in the continent.
Sorry for rambling. Point is - it seems to be human nature to essentialise difference between different societies, for various reasons (often to do with power structures, of course). But it's just doesn't allow for the true diversity within populations.
And (Chaotropic correct me if I'm wrong) searching for the Loch Ness monster in Scotland would be just as much a cryptozoological expedition as any in Sumatra. It's just interesting to go to Sumatra if you live in England! As Chaotropic said, the were-tiger guy is just as much an anomaly in Sumatra as he would be in the UK.
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Psychozoology, or cryptozoology, as Chaotropic seems to be describing it here is an ethnological/ethnographic project, which does have an empirical basis.
It's a form of data collection, really. Unless there's no data collected and it's just for fun, which is possible, in which case, it's probably a cool hobby, but it's not professional cryptozoology, which would be a little different.
It's a form of data collection, really. Unless there's no data collected and it's just for fun, which is possible, in which case, it's probably a cool hobby, but it's not professional cryptozoology, which would be a little different.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I was brought up with my grandmother reading my tea leaves for fuck's sake. I know all about your worldview.
Moving away from "rationality" is not that point in D&G, although moving away from hierarchical systems is. Herein lies your problem: you conflate the two.