Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[luka]

not really tbh. its like maxi says, just a low level thing that they have picked up by osmosis more than anything.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I have no idea that gibberish is supposed to mean.

Basically you've talked yourself into a position whereby Israelis have human rights, while Palestinians don't, but also whereby Palestinians have moral agency, but Israelis don't. Thus when Hamas kills 1,000 Israeli civilians, it's Hamas's fault for being wicked racist terrorists, but when the IDF kills 20,000 Palestinian civilians, that's also Hamas's fault for not surrendering.

I don't think you understand the difference between targeting innocent people on purpose and accidental collateral damage.

Hamas could surrender if it wanted. After all, the ceasefire and freeing of some hostages is a partial surrender.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

are you admitting to engaging in date rape? because this is.. a curious analogy here.

I'm trying to make the situation more accessible to the constituency on this forum.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

especially as we've conclusively established you cling to the superstition of a two state solution, a solution which was even impossible in 1993. this is what being an idealist does to an mf. your poxy intellect has only led you to flights of fancy.

I don't see how Israel would consider a two-state scenario feasible.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I don't see much point in saying this for the 100th time, but the genocidal elements in Israeli society are not isolated or fringe. In the days of Meir Kahane they were fringe, but now they're more like a significant minority. They control enough of the Knesset to play kingmaker for Netanyahu. The Ministers of Security and Finance are both avowed Jewish supremacists. The endless dehumanizing language about animals, monsters, children of light and darkness, Amalek, etc by everyone from Netanyahu on down. At a sub-genocidal level, politicians regularly make calls to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Annexing the West Bank is a mainstream position.

Obviously various Hamas leaders have made various genocidal statements and you can find them easily enough if you want to. The point isn't that Hamas is good - it is not - it's about Israel's claims to universal moral superiority. Palestinians have tried peaceful protest, i.e. the March of Return, and Israeli security forces shot them. They've tried civil disobedience and Israeli security forces shot them. They tried peaceful coexistence at Deir Yassin and Al-Dawayima and got massacred. Nothing could justify Oct 7, or suicide bombings etc, but there's plenty of equally unjustifiable shit on the Israeli side, both now and historically.

If Israel and its supporters just made a might is right argument I would still disagree, but at least it would be honest. This hypocrisy with its selective moral blindness and/or ignorance is what galls.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I don't think you understand the difference between targeting innocent people on purpose and accidental collateral damage.

Israel is very clearly doing the former. They've explicitly admitted it. You're on a busted flush here. Literally the only way you can continue to deny that the IDF is deliberately killing civilians is deny that any civilians exist in Gaza (despite most deaths being those of women and children), or to deny that Palestinians are human beings at all, which I think is probably your actual position here.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I guess it wasn't enough to pass a resolution prohibiting criticism of Israel under a vague definition of antisemitism by 412-1, as there's now a new resolution up for consideration in the House that explicitly states anti-Zionism is antisemitism, which I'm sure is news to the many Jewish critics of Zionism


Things like this are why I just have to laugh when hasbara types are like "Palestinians control the narrative". Like sure dude, call me when they can get a unanimous resolution of limitless support from the most powerful govt on earth.

 

[thirdform]

I don't see how Israel would consider a two-state scenario feasible.

There is already a two state scenario in all but name. So Israel doesn't need to consider it. Are you some kind of masochist who has made his entire personality crapping on progressives that you have forgotten to update your brain since 1992? We're at windows 11 and you're still in the days of ms-dos. Even climatic boy feels shame for the poverty you are experiencing at present.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Entirely foreseeable outcome of giving settler extremists a free hand in the WB, and Ben-Gvir etc a free hand to whip up his followers into a racist frenzy. Huge respect to these people putting their bodies on the line to protect villagers from these assholes.

Can't get the article itself to link properly so here's the tweet

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Idk if I've mentioned this before, but someone I know was shot in the face with a tear gas canister by Israeli border cops in 2009 while photographing one of the weekly protests in Ni'lin against the wall. Lost an eye, partially paralyzed, suffered massive brain damage. It just never ends man. Same bullshit, different day.

Seeking justice for Tristan Anderson: Who watches the watchmen? - +972 Magazine

Israel’s High Court of Justice will hear a petition demanding simply that an investigation into the wounding of a foreign citizen also investigate the real suspects. By Yesh Din, written by Yossi Gurvitz On March 13, 2009, Tristan Anderson was standing in the forecourt of the mosque in the...

www.972mag.com

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Tho this otoh is some of the first heartening news I've seen in weeks

 

[vimothy]

I've been wondering this too. The article someone posted above said they'd struck 15,000 targets in the first few weeks of the war, which is presumably a small fraction of the total they've identified. But the Gaza Strip is slightly smaller than the Isle of Wight, so if it's that "target-rich" then you kind of think they might as well assume that every house, apartment, shop, garage or potting shed in the entire territory is "potentially" harbouring Hamas militants.

I think that's kind of the very strong unspoken, implied bit of the article - the AI is providing a pretext which allows israel to decimate gaza

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I guess it wasn't enough to pass a resolution prohibiting criticism of Israel under a vague definition of antisemitism by 412-1, as there's now a new resolution up for consideration in the House that explicitly states anti-Zionism is antisemitism, which I'm sure is news to the many Jewish critics of Zionism

Hoist by their own dog-whistle petard.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

There is already a two state scenario in all but name. So Israel doesn't need to consider it. Are you some kind of masochist who has made his entire personality crapping on progressives that you have forgotten to update your brain since 1992? We're at windows 11 and you're still in the days of ms-dos. Even climatic boy feels shame for the poverty you are experiencing at present.

You know the current situation is not equivalent to a proper two-state solution...otherwise why would people be clamouring for the two-state solution all the time?

ms-dos was freedom baby!

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I think that's kind of the very strong unspoken, implied bit of the article - the AI is providing a pretext which allows israel to decimate gaza

This is a conspiracy theorist!

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Israel is very clearly doing the former. They've explicitly admitted it. You're on a busted flush here. Literally the only way you can continue to deny that the IDF is deliberately killing civilians is deny that any civilians exist in Gaza (despite most deaths being those of women and children), or to deny that Palestinians are human beings at all, which I think is probably your actual position here.

Your criterion for genocide makes pretty much all serious warfare 'genocidal'. We've noticed that you haven't attempted to confute the claim that, given Hamas surrender, Israel would not go on to slaughter either civilians or even the soldiers that have given in.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Your criterion for genocide makes pretty much all serious warfare 'genocidal'. We've noticed that you haven't attempted to confute the claim that, given Hamas surrender, Israel would not go on to slaughter either civilians or even the soldiers that have given in.

I reject your premise that Israel has no choice but to carry on murdering civilians until Hamas gives up. The power imbalance aside, that's no different from saying that Hamas has no choice but to carry on murdering Israeli civilians until the Israeli government gives up.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I reject your premise that Israel has no choice but to carry on murdering civilians until Hamas gives up. The power imbalance aside, that's no different from saying that Hamas has no choice but to carry on murdering Israeli civilians until the Israeli government gives up.

You just don't accept that there's any kind of difference in their approaches.

 

[maxi]

https://www.btselem.org/voices_from_gaza#215343

Children killed in the bombing of one particular residential building, which killed 49 people. Zero evidence presented of any Hamas presence, and even if there was there would be no moral or legal justification for bombing the building and killing the people inside

The bombing killed 49 people, at least 20 of them minors, and injured 11. These are their names:

1. Nafez ‘Othman al-‘Aidy, 60
2. His wife: Rabab Mahmoud Abu Sweilim (al-‘Aidy), 52, their children:
3. Nabil Nafez ‘Othman al-‘Aidy, 19
4. Sabrin Nafez al-‘Aidy, 17
5. Talin Nafez al-‘Aidy, 13
6. Hani Muhammad al-‘Aidy, 41
7. His son: Mu’az Hani al-‘Aidy, 5 months
8. Sali Nabil al-‘Aidy, 21
9. Israa Khaled al-‘Aidy, 33. Her children:
10. Nabil ‘Ali al-‘Aidy, 9
11. Wisam ‘Ali al-‘Aidy, 7
12. Qays ‘Ali al-‘Aidy, 2 months
13. Ghazal Bilal al-‘Aidy, 9
14. Hala Bilal al-‘Aidy, 7
15. Nabil Bilal al-‘Aidy, 5 months
16. Maram Yusef al-Kafrawi, 26
17. ‘Ahed Mahmoud Nafez al-‘Aidy, 8
18. Rabab Mahmoud Nafez al-‘Aidy, 5
19. Rinad Muhammad al-‘Aidy, 9
20. Rimas Muhammad al-‘Aidy, 16
21. Adam Muhammad al-‘Aidy, 13
22. Rim Khamis Barakat, 33 – Ahmad al-‘Aidy’s wife
23. Yazan Ahmad Nabil al-‘Aidy, 14
24. Maryam Hamdi ‘Abd al-Qader al-‘Aidy-‘Abd a-Latif
25. Sabrin Husam Breikah, 21
26. Rimas Husam Breikah, 18
27. Siwar Abu Suliman, 19
28. Halimah a-Zein
29. Raafat a-Zein
30. Mahmoud Rafaat a-Zein
31. Muhammad Rafaat a-Zein
32. Ahmad Rafaat a-Zein
33. Saja Rafaat a-Zein
34. Raghdah a-Zein
35. Inas a-Zein
36. Mazen Muhammad Khalil Dabur, 44
37. Khaled Mazen Dabur, 17
38. Muhammad Mazen Dabur, 15
39. ‘Azzah Mazen Dabur, 20
40. Mai Mazen Dabur, 16
41. Rahaf Mazen Dabur, 8
42. Ousamah Muhammad Khalil Dabur, 38
43. Sumoud Dabur, 29
44. Alin Ousamah Dabur, 3
45. Dana Ousamah Dabur, 6
46. Sharaf Ousamah Dabur, 9

Mahmoud Nafez al-'Aidy, a 30-year-old from Rafah, lost his wife, two children, parents and brothers when his family’s building was bombed. In a testimony he gave to B’Tselem field researcher Muhammad Sabah on 30 October 2023, he related:
I lived with my wife and our two children, ‘Ahed (8) and Rabab (5), near my parents in the a-Naser neighborhood, which lies east of the city of Rafah.

On the second day of the war, Israel started shelling the area. Shells fell very close to our homes, so we had to leave along with all the neighbors. We went to stay with my cousin, Nabil al-‘Aidy, who lived in a three-story building with six apartments in the neighborhood of al-Juneinah in Rafah. We stayed in an apartment on the first floor along with my parents and brothers. In the opposite apartment were other relatives. Things were relatively quiet in that neighborhood. We only went out to stock up on groceries and didn't run into any trouble, because the area was pretty quiet. On Monday, 23 October 2023, at about 1:20 P.M., I went out to the grocery store while my family was getting ready for lunch. As soon as I stepped out of the building, I was thrown about 50 meters away. I jumped back to my feet and wanted to run to the building to check on my wife, kids, father and mother and brothers. Some passers-by found me bleeding from the head and took me to a pharmacy, where my head was bandaged. I went back to the building and found our apartments completely destroyed. I was shocked. I fainted and fell down.

I woke up in a-Najar Hospital. I had fractures and bruising and the doctors wanted to keep me there, but I insisted on going back to look for my family. When I arrived I found neighbors there, including my friend Anas al-‘Adaisi, and they all helped search for my family. We got 11 injured people out and a lot of bodies. Only the next day were we able to extract the bodies of my wife, kids, parents and brothers. The bodies were dismembered.

It was a horrible sight, indescribable. It broke me to see my boys like that. I'm in a terrible state. I don't know how I’ll deal with what happened to me. I never imagined I’d end up in this situation. I never imagined I’d lose my family like this. I’m alone in the world now. Everything I cared about is gone.

@mixed_biscuits apparently justifies this mass slaughter (alongside many, many others) and places all responsibility on Hamas, and not the people firing the actual weapons. absolutely beyond depraved.

 

[Mr. Tea]

You just don't accept that there's any kind of difference in their approaches.

There is a huge difference. Israel's civilian kill count is - so far - well over an order of magnitude higher than Hamas's, and could go another order of magnitude higher by the time the dust has settled.