Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

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version said:
The Israeli official told VICE News that in the current military operation, which has destroyed most of Gaza’s infrastructure and displaced about two-thirds of its population, the rules of engagement for IDF’s artillery and airborne assets have been loosened, leading to thousands more strikes than typically conducted in past Gaza operations.

“The secret services looked at the health ministry’s collection methods and determined the numbers were generally credible, so instead of collecting their own information they decided to use the [Hamas] numbers.”

[...]

Two intelligence officials from NATO countries told VICE News that privately the civilian casualty numbers released by the ministry in Gaza were accurate enough to be widely used in intelligence briefings throughout NATO.

www.vice.com

Israeli Intelligence Has Deemed Hamas-Run Health Ministry's Death Toll Figures Generally Accurate

Senior Israel officials are using the Gaza Health Ministry's death numbers internally, months after both Israel and the U.S. claimed those figures should not be trusted.
www.vice.com www.vice.com
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All those people that are displaced because Hamas want to fight there and they've been evacuated. There should be barely any civilians left there, but Hamas are ensuring that many get caught up because it makes Israel look bad and helps Hamas tactically. The rules of engagement are different because supposedly all the civilians are absent.

Let's pretend that the figures are correct. Whether the figures are n or n+1 or n+100,000, supporters of Hamas will still claim that Israel are pursuing a genocidal strategy, and anti-semites will still want to cancel out the holocaust by pretending Israel is capable of similar. As the historian Andrew Roberts said upthread, and the urban warfare expert too, Israel are unprecedentedly scrupulous in avoiding unnecessary casualties in this sort of battlefield.

Remember that when Hamas infiltrated the humanitarian corridor, leading to action by Israeli forces, the paranoiacs were claiming that this would be the prelude to wholesale slaughter of those in the humanitarian camps but lo and behold that hasn't happened. Israel are interested in Hamas and the recovery of their hostages, not pointless and time-consuming civilian slaughter that would be totally out of keeping with the evacuation efforts and their various warning systems.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mixed_biscuits said:
All those people that are displaced because Hamas want to fight there and they've been evacuated. There should be barely any civilians left there, but Hamas are ensuring that many get caught up because it makes Israel look bad and helps Hamas tactically. The rules of engagement are different because supposedly all the civilians are absent.

Let's pretend that the figures are correct. Whether the figures are n or n+1 or n+100,000, supporters of Hamas will still claim that Israel are pursuing a genocidal strategy, and anti-semites will still want to cancel out the holocaust by pretending Israel is capable of similar. As the historian Andrew Roberts said upthread, and the urban warfare expert too, Israel are unprecedentedly scrupulous in avoiding unnecessary casualties in this sort of battlefield.

Remember that when Hamas infiltrated the humanitarian corridor, leading to action by Israeli forces, the paranoiacs were claiming that this would be the prelude to wholesale slaughter of those in the humanitarian camps but lo and behold that hasn't happened. Israel are interested in Hamas and the recovery of their hostages, not pointless and time-consuming civilian slaughter that would be totally out of keeping with the evacuation efforts and their various warning systems.
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This is what being a member of a cult looks like.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

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Mr. Tea said:
This is what being a member of a cult looks like.
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You're in the cult. When your fellow cultists' prediction that Israel would massacre those refugees didn't come to pass you should have upgraded your estimation of Israel but it's still stuck at rock bottom - this is a clear sign that someone isn't tracking the truth.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mixed_biscuits said:
You're in the cult. When your fellow cultists' prediction that Israel would massacre those refugees didn't come to pass you should have upgraded your estimation of Israel but it's still stuck at rock bottom - this is a clear sign that someone isn't tracking the truth.
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They've already killed at least 40,000 people, you fucking fruitloop.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

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The confused conflation of Hamas with Palestine and/or Palestinians gives a smokescreen behind which people can cheerlead a proscribed terrorist organisation without getting into bother.

If as the urban warfare expert says, Palestine is just the incidental theatre for a proxy offensive mounted by Iran the association is even less appropriate.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
To say nothing of the fact that Israel has a democratically elected government (as they love to remind us), while the Palestinians have had no say in who governs them in almost 20 years.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

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Mr. Tea said:
To say nothing of the fact that Israel has a democratically elected government (as they love to remind us), while the Palestinians have had no say in who governs them in almost 20 years.
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So you're saying Hamas do not represent the Palestinians? Why are you so keen to stick up for them in that case?
 
yyaldrin

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
a twitter thread from: https://x.com/Cominsitu/status/1802606342873456962

Anatomy of a German Scandal:
1. Students do encampment at FU Berlin for like 1 hour in May, immediately attacked and evicted by police
2. University lecturers write a letter defending free speech, saying don’t send cops (I sign along with 1400 others)
3. BILD magazine attacks professors and calls us all antisemite-terrorists (tell that to my rabbi!)
4. Minister of education and state secretary cite BILD article, agreeing with it, shocked at profs, question their legality
5. Month goes by, there's an encampment at HU, more articles attacking students and professors come out , profs and some lawyers also pushback, defending academic freedom (meanwhile ICJ and ICC verdicts come out)
6. someone leaks government emails from ministry of education! They document the attempt to criminally investigate professors for signing the first letter and whether their research funding can be stripped. Their own legal department says no you can’t do that, that's crazy
7. Huge scandal. Govn't tries to deflect. Another open letter calling for explanation and resignation of the minister. Signed by nearly 3000 profs.
8. Minister temporarily lets go her state secretary (a philosopher) who has been active against students and profs.
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post-mortum: - on the one hand, good for free speech, there won't be change of minds here unless people can discuss this topic without fear of repression. -on the other hand, the actual reason for the entire thing, the ongoing massacre in Gaza, is not discussed at all anymore
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this is such an important quote and describes the discourse so well:

- the scandal is not the scandal, the scandal is how to speak about what causes the scandal. the thing is not the thing, the word is the thing. we are not even at the level yet where we can discuss the thing. we are still fighting to discuss the words which can discuss the thing.
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mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

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yyaldrin said:
a twitter thread from: https://x.com/Cominsitu/status/1802606342873456962
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I think the correct approach is between that and the indulgence shown here and in the US. Disruption of other activities should be vetoed by unis, having been directed to do so by government: you can sit in your tent but don't put your tent in the exam hall or barring the way to Eurovision night. You can boycott things yourself but there won't be any special exemption to the normal rules.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

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As for 'massacre', people were gonna call it a massacre or a little holocaust (thanks, Tea) the moment the IDF stepped on Palestinian soil no matter what happened next. Whether Israel flattened the whole place in 2 days killing all 5.5 million or an IDF soldier broke a door handle by opening it too brusquely, it was going to be an excuse to harass the Jews.

To be clear, what has happened is not indiscriminate and large-scale slaughter of civilians, so not a massacre.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

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I could have sworn the left had a diametrically opposite line on free speech not so long ago. The dimmest view that the authorities could take on that issue is that a politically biased cabal is spreading disinformation provided by a proscribed terrorist organisation which is funded by a dictatorship that considers the West to be satanic.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But really, each of you is backing one side to the hilt because you think the other side are subhuman scum, so in that respect you're peas in a pod.
 
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