malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
It's a Matt Walsh wet dream. Carte blanche to drop the thin subtext and openly call for executing trans people in the street.
And once again, cisheterosissies are cisgendered, not trans. And actually I am Matt Walsh's worst nightmare because I define what is a woman.
 

ghost

Well-known member
The closest we got was a guy passing out platitudes about how we should be nice to women and date them. Too bad he forgot that incels don't date women.
This isn't what I said. You can hang out with a woman and make dinner together without it being a date. It's called "being friends."


I'd say that's a correct characterization of incels, but I'm trying to use love to reach incels. I promote feminine culture, a feminist alternative to incel culture. My question is, how do we get incels to re-direct their pain to turn it against the patriarchy?
The question that I have been repeatedly asking, and getting stonewalled on, is this: why are you so insistent that the only option is a redirection of pain? Why couldn't we take actions that cure the pain instead? You seem to believe either that this pain needs to exist, that it's natural and unavoidable, or that people have a moral obligation to experience it so as to motivate positive political action.

I don't think this pain needs to exist, and I think there are concrete actions that could be taken that would lessen it. I do not understand why this isn't seen as a real proposal by you, or why you have repeatedly claimed I have provided no suggestions when I have been very clear about this.


The patriarchy is masculine culture, I don't see why anyone would deny that.
This is not what patriarchy is. Patriarchy is a complex, interlocking system, it contains perhaps as many women as men, it relies on cooperation from all parties everyone to continue its smooth functioning.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
The question that I have been repeatedly asking, and getting stonewalled on, is this: why are you so insistent that the only option is a redirection of pain? Why couldn't we take actions that cure the pain instead?

I think that's a viable response. I don't see any place where you said that, but it's a fine strategy. How would you cure such pain though? If there are concrete actions that would ease the pain, what are they?

You seem to believe either that this pain needs to exist, that it's natural and unavoidable, or that people have a moral obligation to experience it so as to motivate positive political action.

Nope. Never said that.
This is not what patriarchy is. Patriarchy is a complex, interlocking system, it contains perhaps as many women as men, it relies on cooperation from all parties everyone to continue its smooth functioning.

Yes, it's a complex, interlocking masculine system. The fact that women support it makes it no less masculine. Some women undermine feminine culture plenty the time. If you don't believe the patriarchy is masculine, you don't believe masculine culture exists at all, which is a non-starter.

Another way of handling the masculine/feminine binary: the masculine aligns with the one and the feminine aligns with the many, a plurality of different things. Feminine culture is pluralistic and community-driven, masculine patriarchal culture is individualistic and self-interested.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
Anyone anywhere who rejects or subverts or critiques (you don't even need to subvert them! just be aware of and try to refute the toxic elements) the restrictions of "traditional" gender constructs and roles in any way is resisting the patriarchy. Those are the specific behaviors you keep demanding.

One more thing: I think anyone can see that this does not count as specific behaviors that critique the patriarchy. I asked, "How do you critique the patriarchy?" He is literally saying "People critique the patriarchy." He is not giving examples or being specific. He is just restating the question. He has not provided any critique of the patriarchy or the gender binary.
 
i dont know what this means
Badly written. I do get the same frustration when they’re used as one size fits all shorthand to describe the bad things, it’s boring as fuck. But they describe real processes and how power works
 

luka

Well-known member
Badly written. I do get the same frustration when they’re used as one size fits all shorthand to describe the bad things, it’s boring as fuck. But they describe real processes and how power works
'they' as in capitalism and patricarchy?
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
As for how acting feminine will de-radicalize men, one should hope the feminine practices of love, community-building, and emotional availability, would be enough to stop some men from being violent.

The assertion that these are angelic feminin practices is precisely that, just an assertion.

Further more, you seem to have an idealised view of love, where people can not justify their manipulative or abusive behaviour through love. To say that doing that is masculine might be true enough, but then that requires your conception of love to be rethought or abandoned. I will tell you, your thinking lacks a coherent idea of the symptom and jouissance, and that is because you can't take the Lacanian statement to heart, namely that there is no such thing as a sexual relationship. It can only ever be defined in relation to the other and what it is not. You are mistaking your subjectivity for the real.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
in order to extricate your sense of subjectivity from the dark god of sacrifice (which will never be satiated) and denial, you must be able to submit to amor Dei intellectualis. And in fact, the intellectual love of God is the first step to a thoroughgoing atheism and materialism.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Can you spell this one out for me

“For whoever is capable of turning a courageous gaze towards this phenomenon—and once again there are certainly few who do not succumb to the fascination of the sacrifice in itself – the sacrifice signifies that, in the object of our desire, we try to find evidence for the presence of the desire of this Other that I call here the dark God.”

Our desires do not merely exist as desires unto themselves. Even our sense of the subject is conditioned by other inputs. Humans are a social animal is a statement that should be taken literally, our psychology is based on instincts to varying degrees. The super Ego will precisely never be satisfied because it acts as a kind of other, as a kind of god-like cosmic authority.
 
the gender conversation is just a mess of miscategorisation and contentious definitions isn’t it, we can’t even agree on the basic terms of the argument and intentions are unclear, deliberately obscured or more often not even understood, so deeply embedded and emotionally entangled that we don’t know why we think what we think
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
psychoanalysis is not there to cure you, but to enable you to live and work by bringing the contradictions of your subjectivity into the conscious mind.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
the gender conversation is just a mess of miscategorisation and contentious definitions isn’t it, we can’t even agree on the basic terms of the argument and intentions are unclear, deliberately obscured or more often not even understood, so deeply embedded and emotionally entangled that we don’t know why we think what we think

Well, Luke is right that incels can't be cured qua-inceldem. The solution as such is to demystify romanticism, but every bourgeois idealist, luke included, is suspicious of a disenchanted world.
 
This might be a controversial statement but I don’t think the manosphere or toxic masculinity is as big of a problem as is generally made out and overall things are moving in the right direction. If anything I want more hard lads about
 
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